Thank you Kathy, I am going to lie down now.........WLLady wrote: ↑Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:34 amokay...so one of my issues with the genetics.....if you have Columbian carrying solids-they can be 1 copy or 2. BUT if your solid colours (black or blues) are truly solid, and do not have lighter underfluff on the tummies they are likely split eb/ER, or have a pile of enhancers that will confound the genetics....IF they are split eb/ER you will need at least 64 birds of EACH breeding to get one columbian boy and one columbian girl, each in black and the same for blue columbian. but we'll ignore the potential eb/ER genotype....so your black columbian x blue solid = 64 birds to get 1 black Co boy and 1 black Co girl and 1 blue Co boy and 1 blue Co girl - theoretically. IF your solids are Co/Co, then you are laughing because your kids will be Co/Co. if they aren't, you will get Co/co and then the next generation will get birds that do not carry Co (co/co) and will get birds that are not columbian restricted 50% of the time if bred back to another Co/co. The problem there being you, observing the chickens, cannot tell a Co/co from Co/Co. they look the same because it only takes 1 copy of Co to restrict the columbian pattern. So you won't find that out until the 2nd generation. So, if you set up a solid blue hen with a black columbian boy....that's 64 birds needed hatched MINIMUM. and if you want to do the blue columbian over (or under) black solid that's another 64 birds. so 128 all told. you may get 2 of each that you want (blue and black Co) in boy and girl from each set. MAYBE.
honestly, given these are just probabilities what i would do is put all the blue and black solid girls that you know carry at least 1 copy of Co into a pen and throw in your nicest black columbian (hopefully Co/Co) boy and hatch EVERYTHING. if you can do multiple pens if you have more than 1 nice rooster.....hatch everything, make your best guess when they feather in on the columbian restriction, grow out as many as you can for at least the 2nd moult and go from there based first on your restriction wants (columbian) and colour. then worry about the comb later once you have the correct restriction and colour for at least 2 generations. with these combos you'll get tons of black compared to blue, likely a few splash in there, but hopefully something half decent to continue forward. just remember if you want a nice type MALE offspring, use your best typed HENS under a lesser typed boy. If you want the nicer type in the female offspring, use a nice type boy over lesser type hens. the traits pass hen-son and rooster-daughter....
so. best black columbian boy over lesser typed black and blue hens should give you a some black columbian boys and girls and a very few blue restricted columbian boys and girls with the girls having better form/type and boys lesser type/form. best black columbian hen under blue boy of lesser type should give you the same with better type/form in the boys than the girls.
as a guideline. because what mother nature decides to do is what you need to go with.....if it's the year of the cockerel again, then you might just get the boys this year, and the girls next.....lol
Plans for 2018 breeding season...
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Re: Plans for 2018 breeding season...
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- Killerbunny
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Re: Plans for 2018 breeding season...
Me too!
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Re: Plans for 2018 breeding season...
sorry.....
split your flock into columbians and non columbians.
split each of those groups into boys and girls.
take your best columbian boy (black columbian) and put over the not best looking blue columbian girls to get blue and black columbians back. Keep the BEST blue and black columbian girls that hatch.
take your best columbian girls and breed to not best columbian boys and keep the best looking columbian boys that hatch.
next generation breed the columbian girls hatched from the first, and breed to the columbian boys hatched from the second.
what i wasn't clear about was if you were breeding in solid blues and solid blacks, crossing them to columbians....if so, many of your hatched birds will be solids.....not columbian, UNLESS your solids carry columbian, in which case do the same as above with best columbian boy over lesser solid girls and best columbian girls with less solid boys.
keep all the columbians, and select the best girls from the first cross and the best boys from the second cross and then breed them together in year 2. HOWEVER if your solids are not 2 copies of Co.....well, see below.
columbian Co/Co over columbian Co/Co = columbian without fail.....so many more birds ultimately to choose from.
columbian Co/Co over solid (co/co or Co/co) = all columbians in first year (some will be Co/co, some Co/Co). you can't tell the difference between the two so the crap shoot is which to carry forward, without losing one Co allele....if you carry forward Co/Co youre fine. if you carry forward Co/co you will then in your crosses in year 2 get Co/Co, Co/co and co/co. and be forever weeding out the non columbian, and popping up non columbian for a long long time to come.
long story short, you want columbian, try to breed known columbian (Co/Co) to known columbian (Co/Co), or back cross the potential Co/co to your original parent and don't cross within a generation, always backcross to the older generation columbians (if you know they are Co/Co)
Question: have you test crossed your solids to see if they are Co/co or Co/Co? Have you test crossed your columbians to see if they are Co/Co or Co/co?
this information would help.....and if it's in another thread, point me there. LOL
split your flock into columbians and non columbians.
split each of those groups into boys and girls.
take your best columbian boy (black columbian) and put over the not best looking blue columbian girls to get blue and black columbians back. Keep the BEST blue and black columbian girls that hatch.
take your best columbian girls and breed to not best columbian boys and keep the best looking columbian boys that hatch.
next generation breed the columbian girls hatched from the first, and breed to the columbian boys hatched from the second.
what i wasn't clear about was if you were breeding in solid blues and solid blacks, crossing them to columbians....if so, many of your hatched birds will be solids.....not columbian, UNLESS your solids carry columbian, in which case do the same as above with best columbian boy over lesser solid girls and best columbian girls with less solid boys.
keep all the columbians, and select the best girls from the first cross and the best boys from the second cross and then breed them together in year 2. HOWEVER if your solids are not 2 copies of Co.....well, see below.
columbian Co/Co over columbian Co/Co = columbian without fail.....so many more birds ultimately to choose from.
columbian Co/Co over solid (co/co or Co/co) = all columbians in first year (some will be Co/co, some Co/Co). you can't tell the difference between the two so the crap shoot is which to carry forward, without losing one Co allele....if you carry forward Co/Co youre fine. if you carry forward Co/co you will then in your crosses in year 2 get Co/Co, Co/co and co/co. and be forever weeding out the non columbian, and popping up non columbian for a long long time to come.
long story short, you want columbian, try to breed known columbian (Co/Co) to known columbian (Co/Co), or back cross the potential Co/co to your original parent and don't cross within a generation, always backcross to the older generation columbians (if you know they are Co/Co)
Question: have you test crossed your solids to see if they are Co/co or Co/Co? Have you test crossed your columbians to see if they are Co/Co or Co/co?
this information would help.....and if it's in another thread, point me there. LOL
3
Pet quality wheaten/blue wheaten ameraucanas, welsummers, barred rocks, light brown leghorns; Projects on the go: rhodebars, welbars
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Re: Plans for 2018 breeding season...
All my 2017 hatch Blue and Black pullets are out of Columbian male over Blue hens.
I am planning to breed these solid pullets to my Columbian male.....
Was going to do separate groups, but time is short and I think I am just going to take a plunge and go this way?
That would allow me to do a larger hatch then if I did separate breeding groups.
I am planning to breed these solid pullets to my Columbian male.....
Was going to do separate groups, but time is short and I think I am just going to take a plunge and go this way?
That would allow me to do a larger hatch then if I did separate breeding groups.
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- Ontario Chick
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Re: Plans for 2018 breeding season...
This is my choice of cockerels for next year breeding.
KB do they look any better then yours?
I sort of knew Kibbles and Bits should have been bred to their sire, you can borrow him next spring.
BTW the names are Crappy and Crapier, hard to tell which one is which
KB do they look any better then yours?
I sort of knew Kibbles and Bits should have been bred to their sire, you can borrow him next spring.
BTW the names are Crappy and Crapier, hard to tell which one is which
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- Ontario Chick
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Re: Plans for 2018 breeding season...
So I printed all the suggestions Kathy put forth, and diligently read thru the whole thing, twice,
and now I understand what Jan means by looking at the chickens and having pg's and co's and co/co's and Co/co's
dancing in front of my eyes.
and now I understand what Jan means by looking at the chickens and having pg's and co's and co/co's and Co/co's
dancing in front of my eyes.
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- Killerbunny
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Re: Plans for 2018 breeding season...
These are WAY better than mine! The have a chest. I'll stick with Mr CHunky next year I think.
Jan will confirm after tomorrow how truly awful they are. The pullets however are lovely and typey!
Jan will confirm after tomorrow how truly awful they are. The pullets however are lovely and typey!
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Beltsville Small White turkeys.
Mutt chickens for eggs
RIP Stephen the BSW Tom and my coffee companion.
RIP Lucky the Very Brave Splash Wyandotte rooster.
RIP little Muppet the rescue cat.
- windwalkingwolf
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Re: Plans for 2018 breeding season...
Just wait. Soon those letters will be running through your head while you're drifting off to sleep, and subliminally start to sink in a bit. You will still go cross-eyed reading them and trying to sort out who is what and if x + yx = xw, then how come you ended up with Q, BUT your subconscious/intuition will kick in now armed with esoteric occult knowledge, and you can trust your gut more to make good matches.
I'm just guessing that's what happens, as I'm pretty sure I'm still flying by the seat of my pants
As to those cockerel, those pictures are not very flattering, hoping you caught them at bad angle/moment. How old are they, and what are the chances of getting a profile shot
I'm just guessing that's what happens, as I'm pretty sure I'm still flying by the seat of my pants
As to those cockerel, those pictures are not very flattering, hoping you caught them at bad angle/moment. How old are they, and what are the chances of getting a profile shot
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- Ontario Chick
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Re: Plans for 2018 breeding season...
Sorry, I went out of my way to avoid the profile shots, wanted to leave them some dignity.
They are 4.5 month old, but in my experience no amount of Co's or XWz's or ocult intervention is going to improve the type.
Luckily I also have many lovely typey pullets, which according to Kathy means I am doomed to produce Crappy cockerels.
Sorry after re-reading Kathy's theses for the fifth time I am now on line to produce at least one amazing cockerel next year
if I hatch either 65 or 125 or was it 250?
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- windwalkingwolf
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Re: Plans for 2018 breeding season...
Yes. Good type is generally passed from dam to son, or sire to daughter, so next generation you should have better cockerels to choose from.
In theory!
In theory!
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