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Maximus
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Post by Maximus » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:59 am

You know when you have something and and then you take notice more when others have it? Yes. Like hives. Now that I have hives I notice them all over the place out here. But what I notice the most is where clusters of hives are.

We know neonicitinoids are killing bees. We know that the spray and seed (and dust) used for crops, specifically GMO grown crops contribute to the increased killing of the pollinators.

Why the BLEEP do we have clusters and clusters of hives at the edges of farm fields? That I am going to assume is the biggest impact possible for them. I am seriously confused with the lack of simple logic here. I'm hoping someone can weigh in and help sort it out.

I also am trying to figure out the new 'law' that came into effect last year. Is it really going to be effective or are we just blowing smoke and mirrors to hush the environmentalists? Any farmers planting GMO/class 12 pesticides I would love to hear your thoughts and even if this is a realistic plan.

See below for some 'notes'
Last edited by Maximus on Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Maximus
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Post by Maximus » Tue Jul 19, 2016 8:59 am

On July 1, 2015, new regulatory requirements for the sale and use of neonicotinoid-treated seed in Ontario came into effect. These regulations will continue to be phased in over a period of time. The regulations support the province’s target to reduce the number of acres planted with neonicotinoid-treated corn and soybean seed by 80 per cent by 2017. The government plans to accomplish this by ensuring that neonicotinoid-treated corn and soybean seeds are used only when there is a demonstrated pest problem.

The regulations define corn and soybean seed treated with Imidacloprid, Clothianidin or Thiamethoxam as a Class 12 pesticide. This is a new way of defining “pesticides”. Many people hear “pesticide” and think of something that comes in a jug; now it can also refer to a bag of seed. To be clear, neonicotinoid-treated seed is defined as a Class 12 pesticide, and, as of July 1, 2015, is now regulated like other pesticides. Now, when you hear the term “Class 12 pesticide”, you need to be thinking about neonicotinoid-treated seed, not a pesticide that is sold in a jug or a tank
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Maximus
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Post by Maximus » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:00 am

Here is a summary of our best interpretation of the responsibilities of farmers who wish to buy and grow Class 12 pesticides (neonicotinoid-treated seed) in Ontario:

If you, as a farmer, do not want ANY seed treated with neonics, you do not have to do anything differently. You can simply purchase non-neonicotinoid-treated seed and plant.
If you, as a farmer, want to purchase seed treated with neonicotinoids, you have to give your seed dealer one of two forms from the Government of Ontario:
The first is a Seed Amount Declaration. In 2016 you can use this form to buy neonicotinoid-treated seed to cover 50% or less of your total corn and total soybean acres.
If you want to order more neonicotinoid-treated seed than you can legally buy with the Seed Amount Declaration Form, you need to justify your order of more than 50% of total corn and total soybean acres by conducting a pest assessment and providing your direct-to-farm vendor (DEKALB dealer) with the appropriate paperwork.
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Maximus
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Post by Maximus » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:08 am

So my frustrated translation tells me that it's OK to kill 40-50% of the bee population instead of 70%++

Another fact I learned while I couldn't sleep last night is neonicitinoids resemble (structurally) nicotine. Of course it looked like a no brainer after you type out nicotine and neonicitinoids. So my thoughts immediately go to, why not plant tobacco plants amongst the over abundance crops of soy and corn?

I really need someone to take my iPad and Internet away after 11pm.
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Post by G Williams » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:00 am

A bee keeper has a bee yard smack dab in the middle of my brother's 200 acres of neonictinoid treated corn and soy fields. the bee keeper tested all his yards for the presence of neonictinoids and later asked my brother if he used them because the presence was among the lowest of all his yards. My brother uses conventional planting equipment ; not air seeders.
FYI Potato growers use the same chemical only at a much higher dose and a different trade name. This seems to have escaped the conversation. No-one has figured out how to air-seed potatoes yet.
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Post by ross » Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:18 am

Maybe all you read on the net is not what it really is Sandy . Luck
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WLLady
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Post by WLLady » Wed Jul 20, 2016 9:19 am

so....there has been no well designed double blind scientific study that the neonics are really killing the bees......just saying.....i know i know....but i know how i would do the study, and i just wish SOMEONE would do it and settle the finger pointing for good. because both sides are just going on and on at each other and only presenting snippets of data that support their own causes. fact is we need a double blinded 100 acre study. enclose the fields with nets, and everything in stays in and everything out stays out. 3 hives along the edge of the field-inside the netting. seed the no-neonic seed in the one field with a new/clean seeder, and the neonic in the SAME seeder in the second field. then monitor the hives throughout the growing season. do clover or something that produces enough blooms to maintain the bees over the duration of the study. work the fields identically through the year-no additional pesticide spray, but harvest as needed etc, with the SAME MACHINERY but always the non-neonic field first to prevent tracking neonics to the untreated field. then do the counts and the tests. neonics in the hives, honey, bees, and correlate with bee deaths, mites, etc. everything. then crunch the statistics. but they have to measure EVERYTHING, not just bee deaths. and it's possible they may need to follow the hives and fields for more than 1 year....only after the study is over for the one year would they know if a longer term study is needed. BUT if neonics are killing bees then the neonic treated seed field should kill the majority of the bees in the hives in that field regardless.
then the data from that study will mean something. not just hearsay from the beekeepers or hearsay from the neonic companies. and it has to be an independent study. not one run by beekeepers, and not one run by the companies making neonics.

way i see it, hives are along the field edge because the bees are usually used to pollinate the fields....corn is a wind pollinated crop, but beans, peas, squash, sunflowers etc all benefit from the flying insects for pollination...so put the bees in close proximity and they will preferentially feed on the flowers closer. if you bury the hives in the woods they'll preferentially forage off the wildflowers in the woods before hitting the fields. besides, many of the hives here are dropped with a forklift, they are heavy-commercial beekeepers don't move nucs...they move full hives....not quite sure how to get a forklift into the middle of my woods without some serious lumberjacking...LOL..and when you have a full level with full honey frames, try lifting it....you won't be able to lift the entire series of frames. one frame is heavy enough, full honey supers will need some piece of equipment to carry them en masse. drive the truck to the spot, unload/load and drive on...field edge is very accessible for winter care as well, the snow is deeper on the edge of the woods for insulating the hives, inside the woods the snow can be crazy deep because the trees catch the snow....again harder to access if winter feeding/insulating etc needed. just a few reasons i can think of.
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Post by redninja » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:00 am

I agree that more controlled studies need to be done. The one thing that seems to be left out of the conversation is the variety of plants a bee is allowed to access.
Don't bees, just like most living organisms need a variety of nutrients to stay healthy and thrive. If all they have to choose from are a very narrow selection, I would suggest their immune systems are compromised (just like so many humans these days). This may lead to an inability to fight off virus/bacteria or parasites.
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WLLady
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Post by WLLady » Wed Jul 20, 2016 10:16 am

redninja, i think that is precisely what we are seeing with the "colony collapse disorder" that has hit so hard the last decade or so-the bees are genetically bottlenecked and weakened....and just cannot hang on given any new stresses.
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