2018 breeding pen... #2. TIME to guess....

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Ontario Chick
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Re: 2018 breeding pen... #2. TIME to guess....

Post by Ontario Chick » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:14 pm

Shnookie wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:52 pm
I'm curious. Is the black coming from the blues or the Columbian?
The mothers were Black, the expected result from Columbian male over Black females were 50% Black and 50% Columbian , since I sent 35 eggs and got back 28 chicks, and the survival seems to be higher in the blacks in my experience, it was probably close to that.
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Re: 2018 breeding pen... #2. TIME to guess....

Post by Ontario Chick » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:20 pm

and here be the fuzzy butts..
First Four...
First 4.jpg
Second Four..
Second 4.jpg
close up wing and eyebrows
Second 4 wing.jpg
Second 4 Eyebrows.jpg
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Re: 2018 breeding pen... #2. TIME to guess....

Post by Ontario Chick » Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:26 pm

Third Four...
Third 4.jpg
close up chest, just noticed dark line in the middle...
Third 4 close up chest.jpg
Fourth Four.....
Fourth 4.jpg
That is it for the Blacks, when I was handling them, there seems to be quite a difference in sizes, I am really curious what type they will develop, it almost seems as if deeper I dwell in to the colours separation, more I am loosing the type, what is your take on that Jan???
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Re: 2018 breeding pen... #2. TIME to guess....

Post by Ontario Chick » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:23 pm

And my little beauties, darkest to lightest
First four Columbians.jpg
First four wings.jpg
Second four Columbians.jpg
Third four Columbian.jpg
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Re: 2018 breeding pen... #2. TIME to guess....

Post by windwalkingwolf » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:09 am

I DID miss something! :banana: For some reason, I thought this pen had both black and blue hens and that the rooster was blue columbian. That'll teach me to re-read before I shoot my mouth off making wild guesses. Well, probably not :rofl:
Ontario Chick wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 1:26 pm

That is it for the Blacks, when I was handling them, there seems to be quite a difference in sizes, I am really curious what type they will develop, it almost seems as if deeper I dwell in to the colours separation, more I am loosing the type, what is your take on that Jan???
Oh boy, do you really want me to peek in that can of worms? ok :-) I'm sure you already know many of the things I'm about to say, but I'm going to type them out anyway because maybe it will help me organize my (rather scattered) thoughts so that I can hopefully say something smart and relevant and new roflmbo

Legal disclaimer: When I use the masculine "He", His", "Him", "Guy", etc., it is for the sake of expediency and implied to mean masculine OR feminine ;)

Well, the main pitfall of outcrossing is, it's a huge gamble. If you outcross to improve type, you can lose colour (and get worse type, and better type, and better colour, and odd weirdo chicks) and if you outcross to improve colour, same thing, except with type often seemingly suffering first. You are gambling every time you outcross, and the odds are AT BEST, one in ten is a keeper. If you get one in ten, you've won the gamble.
If you're outcrossing to improve something a little more ephemeral, like wanting a specific disease resistance, all I can say is good luck, god speed, and come back and talk to me in 500 years :-P In my experience, such things take decades or even centuries, and those who claim to have accomplished it in a few short years are full of you-know-what or setting themselves up for some hard life reality.

If you only line breed and are rigorous about culling, you end up with reasonably consistent birds (reasonable being MORE than one in ten is keeper quality) but no matter how strict you are about culling faults and weaknesses, eventually you bottleneck and you end up with birds that are infertile, or only live to be two years old, or are hatched missing eyes or extremely susceptible to infections, or whatever, etc., etc.. An isolated pocket of a variety that's been kept by a breeder for 30 years may look absolutely amazing, but remove them from their little bubble so you can continue the line or invigorate your own, and those bottlenecked birds will start dropping dead.

The difference in sizes in the chicks, I would NOT worry about, unless some are obviously lagging behind, refusing food (or getting bullied away from it) OR you are seeing a regular trend of small chicks maturing into undersized or bad type adults. Scrupulous chick banding and record keeping would come in handy to identify if that last is the case. Generally though, in my experience, size in chicks has very little bearing on adult size and weight, unless there's something wrong and it's ongoing. Some guys are just slow starters or mature and fill out later than others. Chick size and weight is also not necessarily related to TYPE. A skinny chick that's perpetually bullied away from food will not mature into a good, type-y bird if left with his broodmates, but separate him to a different group and he just might end up to be the best bird you've ever seen. Or, he might never get the breast muscle he needs to be a good type-y bird, because there's something wrong with him and that's why he was small in the first place.
But if you're breeding a small flock that you want beautiful but tough as nails come hell or high water sorts of birds, you cull the skinny little guy if he doesn't figure things out and start filling out. It's a balancing act with a small flock, figuring out when (and if) to nurse a slow starter or little guy along, or give up and consign him to the Fire.
But for now, we'll just say that size doesn't matter out of the gate, er, egg. Most of the time, it really doesn't.

There ARE some little things that you can start to look for even at this young age, that DO matter when it comes to 'type' , and will not change all that much as the chicks get older. Things like, relative length and angle of their spine, depth and shape of their keel, the angle of their tail as the feathers come in, and the relative size of their wings. The way they walk and run--how well balanced, and whether they're upright, or straight, or leaning forward. Pick them up, often, from a very young age. Feel their heft, get used to how round or thin, long or short they feel. Whether they're heavy in front or back or well balanced. Whether their keel is knife-edged despite feeling heavy, or blunt feeling despite being light, or anything in between.

I do this OFTEN with chicks, sometimes several times a day in the case of some of the more needy attention-seeking guys lol. Taking mental notes whether consciously or not, I've found I've gotten pretty good at figuring out who will be a decent, healthy, type-y bird and who will be a layer/petstock, and who will likely end up in the freezer should they live so long.

I have no idea if other breeders notice these things in chicks, or do things the way I do. I'm just really nitpicky, er, obsessive, er, anal, er, er, particular. Yeah, we'll go with that. Maybe too much so: six years of breeding BJGiants and I've currently got 6 birds. Well, four I'd breed,plus one elderly ugly hen and one pullet that's a possible, maybe, but I'd rather not given a choice. Maybe it's better if you just ignore my advice and ask someone else :new: roflmbo :hide:
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Re: 2018 breeding pen... #2. TIME to guess....

Post by windwalkingwolf » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:22 am

Oh, I forgot to mention about the guy with the eyebrows....They're not as bad as I expected when you mentioned eyebrows. I envisioned a chick looking like an Emperor Penguin, which usually means chick will end up with silver or lemon leakage in hackles if male. In this case It just means he is hiding a tiny bit of silver that will probably never show, or even express unless you mate him to silver again. It isn't really surprising since dad was Columbian. The very light yellow, grey, and white markings are ok, even little faint thin eyebrows. He/she is completely normal and expected :) But I'd mark him and watch, just in case ;)
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Re: 2018 breeding pen... #2. TIME to guess....

Post by Ontario Chick » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:17 pm

So I read thru the whole thing, twice, and came to a conclusion that we should just get together for coffee and actually talk?
I am assuming that all the Black males will have some sort of leakage, have never had a Black cockerel can't imagine I would be able to get a really good one out of this breeding.
The reason I commented on the different chick sizes, (these are healthy active chicks) is because until the outcross, the sizes were pretty uniform.
The outcross makes me feel that not only have I segregated colours, but some other "ingredients" have also segregated.
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Re: 2018 breeding pen... #2. TIME to guess....

Post by windwalkingwolf » Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:26 am

Ontario Chick wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:17 pm
So I read thru the whole thing, twice, and came to a conclusion that we should just get together for coffee and actually talk?
:rubbingchin:
Hmm. We've spoken online for years, I sold you a rooster thru Doug that probably was the swansong to your Ameraucana breeding roflmbo , I keep giving you questionable advice, and yet we've never met face to face. Might be time, so you can finally know for sure how much of me is blowhard and how much is serious as a heart attack ;)
Ontario Chick wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:17 pm
I am assuming that all the Black males will have some sort of leakage, have never had a Black cockerel can't imagine I would be able to get a really good one out of this breeding.
The reason I commented on the different chick sizes, (these are healthy active chicks) is because until the outcross, the sizes were pretty uniform.
The outcross makes me feel that not only have I segregated colours, but some other "ingredients" have also segregated.
You're in new territory. Assume nothing. You *shouldn't* get leakage, judging by chick colour alone. You may, but I don't think so. I think it's more likely that your blacks will just maybe be a little dull looking, but nothing is guaranteed at this point, and unless you plan to breed a line of blacks as well (as opposed to just using them to refresh the Columbians), I wouldn't worry too much about their colour at this point. But, you're probably right about not getting a really good type-y black male. It's a numbers game, and you just don't have the numbers from this cross to absolutely assure at least one good male. But that doesn't mean you WON'T get a good one. It's too early to tell, and I'm sure you, and the rest of us (now that you've set us all up so nicely LOL) are now going to be sweating and stewing for the next six to eight months wondering how they're turning out. I'd be grumpy, except this sort of thing is my idea of a good time and a FUN pastime. I love it when I guess right, and I learn from it when I guess wrong. It's always challenging. I LOVE poultry for this reason.
On the other hand, I think you might have mostly pullets and the whole "good cockerel" point might be made even more moot! I know you wanted a couple good boys, and I think a good blue columbian for Gill, but you might have to be happy, for one more year, with "ok" boys. Don't overlook the girls too much--they play a bigger role than you might realize. They might not be so flashy, but an excellent hen will further your breeding just as much if not more so than a single excellent cock.
And, no, again, don't worry about the size thing just yet. Yes, it might be true that some other "ingredients have also segregated". But, didn't last years' Millpond hatch result in a tiny, weird, solid dark chick that tuned out to be pretty ok?
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Re: 2018 breeding pen... #2. TIME to guess....

Post by WLLady » Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:07 am

i have to agree with jan on the leakage thing, i doubt they'll be bad-see that little flash on the tummy? well....there's some melanizers in there for sure, so IF they leak, it won't be bad. i've seen way worse eyebrows (or way more striking eyebrows depending on how you look at it) on other birds that didn't leak either.
it all depends on those melanizers in the long run....if they're good and there, the birds will be black. maybe not beetle sheen black, but black.

yes! totally the girls will help!!!! good type or colour or whatever in the girls means the next generation boys will be improved....mothers pass to sons, dads pass to daughters. so....hang in there. they're chickens. they're aggravating, and like a box of chocolates when they hatch (with an 8-10 month "holding" period after lol).
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Re: 2018 breeding pen... #2. TIME to guess....

Post by Ontario Chick » Mon Jun 18, 2018 11:40 am

windwalkingwolf wrote:
Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:26 am
You're in new territory. Assume nothing. You *shouldn't* get leakage, judging by chick colour alone. You may, but I don't think so. I think it's more likely that your blacks will just maybe be a little dull looking, But, you're probably right about not getting a really good type-y black male. It's a numbers game, and you just don't have the numbers from this cross to absolutely assure at least one good male. But that doesn't mean you WON'T get a good one. It's too early to tell, and I'm sure you, and the rest of us (now that you've set us all up so nicely LOL) are now going to be sweating and stewing for the next six to eight months wondering how they're turning out. I'd be grumpy, except this sort of thing is my idea of a good time and a FUN pastime. I love it when I guess right, and I learn from it when I guess wrong. It's always challenging. I LOVE poultry for this reason.
Same here nothing better then challenge to get the creative juices flowing.
BTW, the Ameraucana cockerel I got from you probably extended my Ameraucana adventure rather then shortened it.
Apparently I can run a breed in to the ground all by myself without anybody's help ! :doh:
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