bantam to LF

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BlackRose
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bantam to LF

Post by BlackRose » Mon May 15, 2017 10:59 pm

has anyone bred Lf to bantam? does it work and what sizes would the babys be? i would be wanting them to stay small as a bantam but hope some of the genes of the lf carry over to the bantam chicks
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windwalkingwolf
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Re: bantam to LF

Post by windwalkingwolf » Tue May 16, 2017 1:00 am

Welll, I have a few "oopsies" from a silkie mix rooster over Giant and Orpington hens, and a few from a Giant rooster over bantam hens of mixed breeding, that last was rather frightening to watch and I wouldn't deliberately do that again...but anyway, yes, it works just fine, even with a tiny rooster over huge hens. If the hen is willing, she will stretch herself up to meet him. Indeed, I've got a couple big hens that much prefer the tiny guys to the larger roosters. As to size, the babies will be the size of whatever egg they hatch out of, but once grown, the sizes are all over the place-- from almost as small as the bantam parent, to almost as large as the standard one. The hen in the picture below is the result of a Giant rooster and a tiny silkie mix hen. Don't let her cuteness fool you, she weighs 7 lbs.
20161028_035253.jpg
If you're looking for consistent results size-wise, for example you want all of them sized mid way between the bantam and the standard, you could expect better results than I got by using two parents of the same breed (e.g. LF and bantam Wyandottes) , especially if the bantam was derived from the standard i.e. the original breeders took a standard sized breed and bred down in size over time to make a bantam version. If you take a bantam that has completely different genetic makeup from it's large fowl counterpart, you can expect results like mine, with sizes all over the place, throwbacks, unexpected colours, etc. As a general rule, female offspring will inherit more qualities from their male parent, and male offspring will inherit more qualities from their female parent, so depending on what, exactly, qualities you are hoping to see in the results of your breeding project, keeping that in mind will help you be more successful, faster. So, for example, say you have standard Rhode Island Reds that lay really well but are larger than you want for your table, and have bantam R.I.R.s that are crappy egg layers and a little too small for your table. You decide to mix the two and hopefully get a bird sized somewhere between the two, that lays lots of eggs. In this case, you would want to pick roosters from the standard flock and hens from the bantam, to get daughters that lay better than their bantam parent. Since it's impossible to know how many eggs a rooster would lay if it were a hen, you must pick roosters that came from an excellent layer. preferrably, his aunts and grandmothers were also excellent layers. It's not always possible to know, obviously, but the trial and error of breeding projects is half the fun! At least, until it's sucked 10 years out of your life with little to show for your efforts :rofl: Whether or not it will take ten months or ten years (or more) to reach your goals will depend on many things, not the least of which are the breeds you're using, and exactly what qualities you're hoping for. Things like body type and good colour are harder and take more critical breeder selection than things like size and egg laying ability. And, it's a lot easier to breed chickens to be smaller than it is to breed them to be larger, so how you go about it depends a lot on what your ultimate goals are.
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Ontario Chick
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Re: bantam to LF

Post by Ontario Chick » Tue May 16, 2017 12:01 pm

***+++trial and error of breeding projects is half the fun! At least, until it's sucked 10 years out of your life with little to show for your efforts Whether or not it will take ten months or ten years (or more) to reach your goals will depend on many things, not the least of which are the breeds you're using, and exactly what qualities you're hoping for. Things like body type and good colour are harder and take more critical breeder selection than things like size and egg laying ability. And, it's a lot easier to breed chickens to be smaller than it is to breed them to be larger, so how you go about it depends a lot on what your ultimate goals are.*******+*+
Nicely covered Jan, as per usual, especially the last part. ;)
After one has considered All the possibilities , and even tried some, the easiest and cheapest road is the one which leads to a reputable breeder of a good quality birds.
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modern17
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Re: bantam to LF

Post by modern17 » Tue May 16, 2017 12:50 pm

I have experience with making bantams into Large Fowl and have a friend that took Large Fowl and made bantams... either way it follows a formula. First thing to keep in mind..... Don't expect immediate results ! You are looking at approx. 4-6 generations to get final results... the most important elements I can stress is record keeping.. as well as remaining focused on the main goal and not be distracted or discouraged by things not moving as quickly as you might want... on top of that not every bird raised will be useful in the program.. in other words .. culling is extremely important and necessary . It is a labour of love and a testament of your dedication. I made Large Fowl Birchen Modern Games in 5 generations from Bantam . My friend I mentioned ( in the USA) made Large Fowl Brahmas into Bantams in 5 generations as well.. The progress ( in my case) each year was visually there and rapid and that helps in keeping your goal in your mind that you are on the right track. Last year I had one of my cockerels go up reserve Any other Standard Breed at the APA National in Columbus Ohio... When show management came to take him to Champion Row , I was asked " They tell me these where once bantams"... I said yes 5 generations ago I replied... " Amazing " was the response.:) Anyway... I can email you a formula if you would like.. and go into detail on what I did .
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BlackRose
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Re: bantam to LF

Post by BlackRose » Tue May 16, 2017 1:51 pm

okay thank you everyone, the only reason why I am asking this is because it seems i can only find LF of the breed I want in canada while my flock in the usa is bantam and if im to bring them with me to canada like i am planing to do i will at some point need new blood and really dont want to bring another bird from the usa to canada, once is enough for me, i know already that my flock is closer related then i would like but they are so rare that they are all from the same flock to start out anyways so i may have to breed the ones i have to the lf of its kind if i start to notice too much inbreeding going on, i am assuming the guy who made the bantam size of this breed did exactly this, breeding standards to bantams that look similar to the standards as he owned both sizes.
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windwalkingwolf
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Re: bantam to LF

Post by windwalkingwolf » Tue May 16, 2017 3:26 pm

Inbreeding, done right, is how we got all our different breeds and varieties in the first place, and is how to strengthen and enhance the qualities we want in our birds :) . Culling, done right, is how to make sure undesirable genes don't get strengthened/enhanced and make it to the next generation. A large flock with a lot of genetic diversity is ideal to avoid some of the inheritable issues that can pop up, but not always possible. If you're planning to work with Auracanas, you've already got points against you, as chicks that carry two copies of the tufted gene have the annoying habit of dying before they ever hatch, and careful breeding is essential.
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Killerbunny
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Re: bantam to LF

Post by Killerbunny » Tue May 16, 2017 6:47 pm

Yes, all of Mouse offspring died if they were female and the hatch rate was very poor anyway. She was hiding a tailless gene somewhere too.
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Littleponderosa
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Re: bantam to LF

Post by Littleponderosa » Tue May 16, 2017 7:59 pm

May I ask what breed it is you raise? I know that there are breeders out there who do not advertise that they breed and raise a certain breed but will sell select birds to some people. Plus we have a large network here and may be able to lend a hand!
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Re: bantam to LF

Post by Skinny rooster » Sun May 21, 2017 5:30 pm

When I was a teenager, many years ago lol, it was hard for me to get roosters so I mixed bantams and large fowl. However I found there were problems with breeding large hens to bantam roosters. I did find there was a larger death rate at hatching, it did appear to me that some chicks were too small to get out of the big egg. I had enough trouble that I try to stay away from that mix. On the other hand, my bantam hens bred to my standards had strong healthy chicks with almost no losses. Silkie roosters do seem to be able to get around this, My first silkie rooster successfully produced chicks from my red and black sex-link hens. My two cents lol.
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