Poultry Talk Ontario (pto.ca)

...And Columbian. And every other gene and colour known to chickendom. But anyway, to recap for those who haven't read their story before, I once had a bantam cuckoo hen that was a mix of silkie, easter egger and marans. Her name was Mama One. She was one of my best mutt layers ever, laying an extra large olive egg 5-6 days a week, year round, when she wasn't broody which was 2-4 times a year. I didn't want bantams and so never deliberately bred her, but she always seemed to sneak a batch or two of her own by me every year, almost always with the same rooster, her 1/2 brother, a little black guy with lemon (gold and silver) I called 'Eagle'. I bet I got a hundred or more chicks from her sneaky dalliances and even sneakier nest-hiding ability, and all were always boys and hit the freezer asap anyway. Until "Speck", a random one-in-a-million chick that was hatched all white with a black dot on his head, like a cuckoo in reverse! As he began to feather in, it became clear he would be mottled, which is one of my favourite poultry colours though I've never owned any. How he happened I'll never know, but my best bet is random genetic mutation x 2 LOL since you need two copies of the gene for good mottling. Even so, I was not particularly interested in keeping any bantam offspring at ALL, never mind one from a hen that seemed to produce only boys. But then, approaching sexual maturity, "Speck" got THE most gorgeous red barring in hackles, wingbows and tail. My 'OOH, PRETTY!' light went on, and I wanted to make more like him, bantam or no! Only detriment was, he carried his tail stupid high, and I prefer a more horizontal carriage. About the same time, I began wondering if anyone could breed a chicken to look like a roadrunner bird. Don't ask, just accept that sometimes my brain takes me in strange directions Someone, I'm pretty sure it was Robbie, pointed out that Spitzhauben and Brabanters are already pretty close :) and I agreed, and set about in a round-about sort of way to recreate those looks, except in the colours I wanted. Just using the chickens I had. SOOO, I bred 'Speck' back to his mother, and got ONE pullet, only one she ever hatched, or at least, the only one that lived to adulthood, AND she's just like Speck! Rest were all over the map like before, males, and probably Eagle's chicks to boot. 'Squawk' is that pullet, now 2 year old hen, and looks just like her dad/brother except for a lower tail/longer back (carries similar to a quality leghorn) and a lot less red barring. But, it's there. Whoo hoo, progress! Bred Speck to Squawk, and got some lovely mottleds, and lovely barreds, and lovely silver partridge and WTFs, but all taken by predators. You'd think those colours would be good camouflage in the forest. They aren't, predators spot them just fine. Anything with white on it goes first, brown and red next. Solid colours fare the best, especially black.
Also about the same time, Speck fathered chicks with Owl2/Nurse, a standard, blue Columbian and blue partridge, silkie/EE/?? mix hen. From that pairing I got a blue mottled pullet suitable for my project, only one that survived predator onslaught of 2015, probably only because she was hatched, brooded and raised inside. He also fathered chicks with my leghorn/EE/EE mixes that are suitable for future breeding (black with one mottle gene), and some that "look" white, but aren't really white at all, and may be used. The only project chicks that survived last year were ones brooded by me, or ones that looked black, and a cull barred cockerel or two just because. Speaking of which, I have a barred rooster with half decent type for a barred chantecler project if anyone wants to start one :/ But anyway, I digress.
This project is technically in year two. Predation so far this year has been very low. Speck and Squawk and a couple other hens in project have given me several workable chicks this year (and several culls of course), and so far have not been eaten by predators (fingers crossed) but I am now more concerned than ever about bottlenecking--almost all my main breeders are VERRRRY closely related, "I'm my own grandpa/brother/mother/cousin" related, and if a gene or two can mutate to produce Speck, they can also start producing problem genes as well, and although I've not yet seen any problems in such closely bred birds, that doesn't mean the problems aren't there. And if there are problem genes already in the mix, I may not know it for years, but meanwhile I am intensifying/breeding IN these problem genes. I know from experience (inbred layers when I was a kid and again later on) that they can all look/feel/lay/breed etc. just GREAT and then all of a sudden you have birds start dropping dead at age 4, or birds that lay 12 eggs and then quit and die (like 99.9% of Owl the roosters offspring), or birds highly susceptible to illness or nutritional deficiencies or hatch defects or easily broken bones, or, or, or... As a matter of fact, Squawk the hen experienced a vitamin A deficiency early last year that scarred one of her eyelids. Other, unrelated birds suffered similar effects (old feed), but it reminded me that what I was attempting was not necessarily sustainable. SOOOO, I bought some Performance poultry birds this Spring for potential future outcrossing. Specifically, anconas, silver dorkings and silver spitzhauben. Of which I have few left--one ancona pullet, two dorking pullets and one spitz (unsure of gender), all the rest have succumbed to illness (4 spitz) and predation (4 anconas, 3 dorking, 5 Spitz!!!),So, we'll see if and where that goes when it comes down to breeding time, which won't be until late fall at the earliest, and that's IF I actually decide to outcross to the new breeds. It's still up in the air, because 1., none have all the traits I want, or even several in one breed: 2., The hardiness of the PP birds is in doubt: and 3., I am unsure of the effects of adding back in partridge (silver dorkings) or adding in more silver AND spangled (Spitzhauben).
SO. What ARE the traits I want in my 'breed'? Well, they have, and continue to evolve as I get chick colours and shapes that I like. Right now I want long, slim, black mottled birds with red barring on hackles and tail, 5 toes, yellow legs, medium leg feathering, medium-large tinted or white eggs in quantity, small-medium crest or head poof or (preferrably) medium forward-pointing crest. Horizontal carriage with males having no greater than 35 degree tail angle. Long, gawky legs would be cool, so I might add Moderns into the mix at some point. I don't want much, do I?
Especially considering I have no idea what I'm doing, really, just breeding together birds by eyeball and instinct. I've had, and continue to have, and WILL continue to have (only in year 2 remember) some moments, but all the moments more than make up for it. This is FUN! And the oopsies taste good LOL!
SOOO, here are some of my project birds to date. NO, there is no Mille Fleur, speckled, jubilee, mottled, flower breeds in there anywhere, just mutts of the above breeds I mentioned, that I have bred by happy accident or design.
I'd like to start with Mama One and Eagle so you can see where it all began, but those pics are on my other computer so I'll have to add them at a later date. So here is Squawk and Speck: Some of the kids:

Wow, colorful, I really like the "gold-crelle"? cockerel? Speck?
I don't know how you remember who is who and with whom?

And some more of 'the kids', A lot of these are culls to the project in my eyes, not having the traits or enough of the traits I want, but pretty in their own right.
Now, here is where it gets tricky for me, knowing bupkis about genetics--I have a couple girls and a boy that don't appear to be mottled (though I'm assuming they carry at least one copy), BUT look sort of washed out mottled because of their barring pattern--they only have one or sometimes two bars across an otherwise WHITE feather. VERY pretty to my eyes, but I don't know if using them as breeders will further the mottled cause, or inhibit it, and I think in another thread that WLLady said something to the effect that this 'inhibitor' will hide/squash Columbian, which I don't necessarily want if I want my birds to have dark/red barred hackles, tail and wing tips???
Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the reddish coloured pullet chick has spangles, no? How did that happen? Partial inhibition of partridge??? She's a one-off so far and *may* be an oopsie from an escapee rooster, but I don't think so.

OOps, last but not least, is "Nurse", also a flock breeder and mother to the blue mottled pullet and the HUGE blue pullet in one of the pictures, who definitely IS an "oopsie", her sire being a Jersey Giant!! OC, this means that your outcross experiments of last year are not a wash! You can cross your mossy blue columbiam girl with a good black rooster and get good blue :D !

windwalkingwolf wrote:[post]23610[ OC, this means that your outcross experiments of last year are not a wash! You can cross your mossy blue columbiam girl with a good black rooster and get good blue :D !

You optimist you, "good black rooster" ? still waiting for "precissionplymouth"..." to come up with some more of those Black chicks.
I must say I am really partial to those gold birds of yours with the punk hair!!!

Ontario Chick wrote:QR_BBPOST Wow, colorful, I really like the "gold-crelle"? cockerel? Speck?
I don't know how you remember who is who and with whom?

Yep, that's Speck, and he's a favourite around here too! Firstly because he was a WOW/how cute/how the heck did that happen rooster, and secondly because he's full of personality--the ladies absolutely love him, he's dominant to most of my roosters (about 35 of them), and he must be kept locked up when I want any chicks that are not his LOL, and although not hand-tame, he sees people as people and not as rivals or potential mates, and he's protective of hens and chicks. If I didn't prefer standard breeds, I might keep all bantams just for this guy lol.
With the layer pen and the project bantams, it's REALLY easy for me to keep track of who is who--despite having about 35 hens/pullets, everyone is unique to my eyes. But I'm expecting that to change with the project pen, indeed, Speck had a son this year that I'm expecting to look almost exactly like him. Some are banded, but so far with these groups, I've found it unecessary as I can usually remember who came from who in which year. I'm at my mental limit though, so unless I cull a little harder (which is what I plan to do), I'm going to have to start keeping better records.
With the Jersey pen it's a little more difficult, as they're bred towards a standard and there's a bit of uniformity in that pen LOL. None of them are named, though some have nicknames. My three best hens are almost indistinguishable from each other, except one is a hussy and always has broken feathers on her back, and one has a DQ, a comb sprig. My two best roosters are practically identical as well, except one has a DQ, a partially white tailfeather.

Ontario Chick wrote:QR_BBPOST

windwalkingwolf wrote:[post]23610[ OC, this means that your outcross experiments of last year are not a wash! You can cross your mossy blue columbiam girl with a good black rooster and get good blue :D !

You optimist you, "good black rooster" ? still waiting for "precissionplymouth"..." to come up with some more of those Black chicks.
I must say I am really partial to those gold birds of yours with the punk hair!!!

I have to admit, when PPR posted about the standard blacks, I had an image of you as Princess Leia flash through my mind, saying, "Help me, Obi Wan, you're my only hope!" Because just one good bird would be all it would take to get the blue wy's (even miss mossy!) to the next level, it's just to get your hands on that one. Hope springs eternal :)
I am really partial to the gold and black as well, and if I had the time and space for another project, I might take those guys in their own direction!

Here are the chicks I bought in Spring, to potentially outcross my project to. Ancona has the shape/leg colour/feather colour I can use, but nothing else. Dorkings would add some size (still not really digging the tiny bird thing), keep the fifth toe gene in there, help keep silver gene in there (which is handy for hiding certain colours), but nothing else, plus may add salmon and enhance partridge, which I'm not sure I want at this point. Silver spangled Spitzhauben has a shape I like, would help keep the project crested (it's starting to get hit or miss so I have to add crested back soon), and could probably use the colour but I don't know how spangling will affect mottling. Especially with silver genes, which I'm fairly certain Spitz are. I know from experience that production leghorns are actually silver, or at least mine were, and some of my project has some of that lineage a bit back. As a result, I'm still getting some all-white birds. They're gorgeous, but culls for this project and purpose. Thoughts? Ancona pullet on the left. And yes, I know she looks much like some of my project birds. I may be a little OCD.

Only thing I have to say about those bantams that I saw on Saturday is that they are delightful little jewels flitting about the place! Just lovely.

WWW very impressive! Your birds are coming along very nicely, indeed. Spangling is actually pretty complicated, it's due to a combination of the dark brown gene Db, which acts a lot like the columbian gene, the pattern gene Pg and melanotic Ml. Here's where it gets tricky: if you have a black spangled bird and add dominant white, the spangles will become white, and you have a bird that looks mottled but isn't, it's white spangles. Mottles are caused by the mottle gene, which is a simple recessive gene. Mottles are the absence of colour; spangles are pigment mashed into the tip of the feather, which dominant white can turn white (again, absence of colour........ but a totally different genetic mechanism to get those white spots).
Here's a link to a handy "spot" summary:
http://www.aviculture-europe.nl/nummers/08E02A05.pdf

If I was looking to breed a mottled bird, me, I'd be tempted to get rid of the barring gene, IMO it just messes things up.

Ah jees, i got tired just reading and thinking of this breeding project so far.

And I had to go and get spangled cornish bantams...i couldn't pick an easy colour like black or white.

Good luck with this www.