Question Genetic experts needed

[kenya]

QR_BBPOST those are very pretty Kenya!!!

Thanks!

[WLLady]

Oh wow those are gorgeous! I think the more mottled probably carry Mo as well....given the white. Yep wheaten....for sure something else going on than just co pg and db genes. Are the white mottled ones carrying mahogany? The photo looks like it! They are really cute!
edited to add that when i use my cellphone they look mahogany but on my computer they don't....hm.....one of my monitors colours is off....

[WLLady]

oooookay.....
so i managed to replicate your issue on the chicken calculator-if one of your cornish populations is eb/eb and the other is ewh/ewh. Then in the second generation you breed sister/brother, and then in the next generation managed to select the birds that were mixed eb/ewh.....
And this is with the starting mottled/pied as ewh/ewh (or eb/eb) co+/co+ db+/db+ Pg/Pg Ml/Ml, mo/mo and the laced were eb/eb (or ewh/ewh-opposite to the mottled/pied) and Co/Co, db/db Pg/Pg Ml/Ml Mo+/Mo+.
you would then select ewh/eb Co/co+ db/db Pg/Pg Ml/Ml Mo+/mo for the crosses since all the kids are the same, crossbreed...
The ewh would present with white on the wingtips until adult moult probably, and if you selected either the most common (statistically speaking) Ewh/Ewh (and Ewh/eb) it would actually not carry or would be heterozygous for mottling/pied-those that are carrying would be mo+/MO and then on crossing you would gradually lose the mottling, through selection for the ewh tips, and not the mottling....given that the mo/mo carrying kids you need 128 kids hatched to get male and female homozygotics (mo+/mo+) with the combo of Co/Co db+/db+ Pg/Pg Ml/Ml needed. and that would only give 1 boy and 1 girl to work from. Yes, there will be other mottled/pied-but cross breeding off those will give you the ewh/ewh or eb/ewh with Co/co+ - and i think from your photo you have mix of co+/co+ and Co/co+ (or Co/Co) in your pieds-one of those birds has a lighter head, while the others don't, which is a columbian restrictor.....mottling works better without the Co/Co (or Co/co) but you do need Co/Co for nice lacing....so i think you have a mix at the Columbian gene and also on the e locus. The ewh/eb chicks look ewh-yellow, like your middle photo....where eb with all these patterning/restrictors will look like a lighter brownish-yellow chick (darker than the ewh chick but not by much probably) with a distinct different shade of brownish yellow on the head-from the neck up really. but ewh covers eb, so for the mottled i would select really hard at the chick stage for your less yellow chicks....and hatch lots and lots!!!
Of course, this is all assuming i have the genotype of your actual birds correct! I don't know anyone with a mottled/pied or even spangled cornish....and doubt you really want to grab a millefleur something or another to cross into your birds and sacrifice the awesome cornish shape you have going for you!

[Robbie]

Digging deeper trying to gain understanding........... I see that there are both spangled AND mottled cornish bantams accepted by the APA. From what I can gather from the pictures, the mottled is a black bird with white spots, the spangled is a brown and black bird with white spots. I'm wondering about what the lacing if any should look like on the spangled? I'd just assumed the spangled was just a regular dark cornish (double laced) with mottles, but it seems perhaps not- if there's Co in there it will be a single laced bird as I understand it. Or maybe lacing is unimportant in the spangled cornish? Does anyone have a recent standard of perfection which describes the correct feather colour?

Link to mottled: http://www.katherineplumer.com/closeups ... rnish.html
Link to spangled: I don't see any lacing at all: http://www.katherineplumer.com/closeups ... rnish.html

[WLLady]

as far as i can tell columbian doesn't "play" with mottled-mottling makes the end of the feathers white (removes the ground colour of the chicken and any pigment that maybe be pushed there from Pg and Ml (so single or double lacing basically). Mottled also can contribute to a line of melanin forming at the borders of the mottled restriction - so a darker (usually black) bar across the feather, distinct from that of the Co+Pg+Ml barring like effect. So mottling in essences gives you the (from feather shaft side to tip) ground colour, black or dark line and white. For there to be any white involved it would have to be mottled/pied gene (mo+/mo+) since this is a recessive trait, so both copies are needed otherwise other factors will cover it. What i can't tell, from my lousy computer and cell phone screens are if kenya's birds are brown, black, dark brown, melanized or mahogany.....sigh.

if they are double laced with mo+/mo+ then there should be absolutely no dark colour on wingtips, and ironically the tail will have white spots on the ends of the feathers, and i'm not seeing that in kenya's photos, the tails seem to end on black, which makes me think that Columbian restriction is still present....

[Robbie]

So I'm thinking that the spangled cornish aren't like the jazzy coloured polish, which are single laced plus mottled, or simply the double laced with mottling. I'm curious how they bred spangled cornish, if I'm looking at the picture correctly they seem to have removed lacing altogether in this variety? Would they have bred out Pg?

[WLLady]

I always chuckle when i see those stumps of legs!

from the drawings posted there robbie, i would say their spangled is probably Co/Co, Pg/Pg and Ml/Ml, then with the white feather tips with mo+/mo+. The heads and necks are slightly different colour from the ground colour of the body, so i think they are Columbian restricted....the male is much darker so Ml/Ml+Pg/Pg must be in there, since that drives the cockerels much much darker....BUT i'm not so sure that mo+/mo+ would be strong enough to get rid of the double laced, so the columbian would have to be added to result in single laced and then the mottled could push it out with columbian's help? BUT then if you look closely at the drawing-the tell tale black line above the white is there, so they must have mottled.....I do think they have to have Pg because that's the driver to darkening up the males (Ml plus Pg) and not the females....

the mottled drawing could be Pg/Pg, can't tell. Certainly there's Ml/Ml and Db/Db going on there to get that depth of colour UNLESS they're actually extended black on the E locus then i would figure E/E with mo+/mo+. columbian would be completely hidden by the extended black, as would any patterning/lacing....and i'm not so sure the mo+mo+ would actually be strong enough to restrict extended black. but i also think that the hens would lose mottling on their heads and necks because of the E locus....

I wonder if it really is just the addition of the double recessive mo+/mo+? but then how would the hen on the mottled pic get that dark? unless she's actually black? Columbian wouldn't actually have that big an effect on ground colour would it? then the mottled being co+/co+, mo+/mo+ and unknown Pg/Ml?

[Robbie]

I always thought that the columbian gene in a double dose lightens red.... I don't think it affects black though. but I don't know if mahogany cancels that out and a columbian/mahogany bird still can be dark red.
There are black cornish bantams, but they aren't recognized for some reason. It would be odd IMO to recognize a black mottled cornish but not a pure black one??? And I wonder if the bantams have the charcoal gene, apparently it's in the dark standards. It would be interesting to see the history of these bantam cornish, I wonder if like some other standard/bantam breeds like Chanteclers and Buckeyes they are entirely different and not just smaller versions?
To be honest I haven't paid much attention to the bantams, I like the standard dark cornish the best so I have ignored the others... but they seem complicated.
Seems as if the bantam cornish genome is getting as messy as the Marans!

[kenya]

They get more white on them as they age.

[baronrenfrew]

So Kenya...where did your stock start from?