OK come on guys need some expertise here. My spangled cornish I crossed with my dark Cornish 2 generations back. According to the genetic calculator I should be getting spangled back again but as chicks they appear spangled then continue to darken till I'm not sure if I'll even have any spangled left. How many generations will I have to go? Or should I just hatch as many as I can to get the desired result.
My dark Cornish are much better than my spangled but my spangled are much better than others I've seen. I'm in a pickle now as I've lost both spangled roosters and have to go with a spangled dark Cornish cross. These are all bantam. Anyone out there have a nice spangled rooster.
Question Genetic experts needed
Genetic experts needed
Not an expert, but I'll have a go. I assume Spangled cornish are just dark cornish with a double dose of the mottle gene?
So you crossed spangled with dark, that should have given you all chicks heterozygous for the mottle gene, only one copy. If you then crossed brother to sister, this would give you approximately one quarter (25%)(of a large number) of chicks that are homozygous, have two copies of the mottle gene. So in theory, one in four. Fifty percent will be heterozygous, one copy of the gene, and the other quarter (25%) will not have any copies of the mottle gene.
You "should" be able to get mottled chicks with that cross in 2 generations. I don't know how many chicks you have hatched from a brother/sister (or other heterozygous pair) but it may be that the chicken math just hasn't been in your favour.
Some people say that you can't tell if a chicken has one copy of the mottle gene, others say that occasionally a white wingtip or a few stray white spots show up if one copy is present. Some say a heterozygous chick does what yours are doing, spotty at first then losing them. It might be breed dependent, I don't know.
The mottle you see in chicks may just be an expression of the wheaten gene, which is the "proper" (English) base for Cornish. None of the Cornish I've ever had (not many!) have been wheaten, only brown or wild type. Wheaten chicks can look pretty spotty (I see it in my Buckeyes and crosses sometimes) but that disappears as they age.
There are modifiers of the mottle gene, it's expression is quite variable so the best thing to do is breed as many chicks as you can and keep selecting the ones with the best mottles. The mottles get larger with age too, so it's tough to select from young birds.
Hopefully WLLady chimes in to give you a better answer.
So you crossed spangled with dark, that should have given you all chicks heterozygous for the mottle gene, only one copy. If you then crossed brother to sister, this would give you approximately one quarter (25%)(of a large number) of chicks that are homozygous, have two copies of the mottle gene. So in theory, one in four. Fifty percent will be heterozygous, one copy of the gene, and the other quarter (25%) will not have any copies of the mottle gene.
You "should" be able to get mottled chicks with that cross in 2 generations. I don't know how many chicks you have hatched from a brother/sister (or other heterozygous pair) but it may be that the chicken math just hasn't been in your favour.
Some people say that you can't tell if a chicken has one copy of the mottle gene, others say that occasionally a white wingtip or a few stray white spots show up if one copy is present. Some say a heterozygous chick does what yours are doing, spotty at first then losing them. It might be breed dependent, I don't know.
The mottle you see in chicks may just be an expression of the wheaten gene, which is the "proper" (English) base for Cornish. None of the Cornish I've ever had (not many!) have been wheaten, only brown or wild type. Wheaten chicks can look pretty spotty (I see it in my Buckeyes and crosses sometimes) but that disappears as they age.
There are modifiers of the mottle gene, it's expression is quite variable so the best thing to do is breed as many chicks as you can and keep selecting the ones with the best mottles. The mottles get larger with age too, so it's tough to select from young birds.
Hopefully WLLady chimes in to give you a better answer.
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Genetic experts needed
Studying chicken genetics was hard, a lot of new terms to learn, but I think worth it- and I hope a little knowledge will help me breed a better flock.
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WLLady
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Couple questions....what is the chick colour on your dark cornish (i am assuming wheaten or e+...)....
And same question about your original spangled cornish....
....thinking.....
And same question about your original spangled cornish....
....thinking.....
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Ontario Chick
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You aren't going to get any expertise from me, just plenty of sympathy.
3 years in, and I am still trying to 'insert' second copy of Black, back in to my 'Columbians'..................
3 years in, and I am still trying to 'insert' second copy of Black, back in to my 'Columbians'..................
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WLLady
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alright....how i see it.....
let's assume that all your birds, the spangled, and the laced, are eb/eb based (more on this later).
parents then should be:
spangled: eb/eb Db/Db co+/co+ Pg/Pg etc etc (rest the same)
Laced: eb/eb db+/db+ Co/Co Pg/Pg etc etc (rest the same)
so 2 genes really at play, Db, and Co. Db/Db is required for spangling-it effectively takes lacing from around the feathers and moves it to the tips. If you add Co/Co then you move that spangling back to a barred like line across the feather and end up with reduced spangling-and this is where i think you are seeing the spangling fading with subsequent moults, because Co is more of an adult restrictor than a chick restrictor.
okay, so all first generation will be split:
eb/eb Db/db+ Co/co+ Pg/Pg etc for simplicity these are Db/db+ Co/co+ and to get your laced back you need Co/Co and db+/db+; to get spangled back you need co+/co+ Db/Db. these 2 genes do not co-segregate....so each individual gene will make its own effect in a single kid, so you MUST get the combo together again to get the "proper" kids back. Twice as many birds right there need to be hatched.
so now, you cross brother and sister. and sister and brother.
you will (without going into the gory details) get
1/32 kids will be spangled (co+/co+ and Db/Db). 1/32 kids will be laced (Co/Co db+/db+). Then there's a mess. 1/32 will be double laced. 5/32 will be half spangled (and probably hidden as they get older). 2/32 kids will be incomplete spangled (no clue how you will tell them apart from half spangled or double laced/half spangled). 2/32 kids will be incomplete laced (no clue how you will tell these apart from laced, or double laced/half spangled). 4/32 will be double laced/half spangled (again, no clue how you will tell these guys apart from the birds you want).
Now, remember this is just for females or males, you will need 64 birds (statistically speaking) to get 1 male and 1 female of each of your laced and your spangled back. so....if you didn't hatch 64 birds minimum.....especially this year where everything seems to be males LOL
you will ONLY get your laced and your spangled back in your next generation IF you have successfully selected the fully laced and fully spangled birds, otherwise you will be restricting your chances of getting them in future generations but not guaranteeing that you WILL get them. unless you carry a large number of birds and cross breed.
Now, if your dark cornish are like mine and i think they are split e+ or e+/Ewh, or ewh/eb.....this greatly complicates things. because now you have 3 genes you need to sort out into the correct combos to get spangled vs laced. the main drivers are still co/co and Db/Db (with Ml/Ml but cornish carry Ml so it's all good). but the e locus will be mixed. if they are ewh/ewh you then will also have to select based on chick down colour in your second generation-the first generation will all be ewh/eb, but the next is 1/4 ewh/eb, 1/2 ewh/eb and 1/4 eb/eb it's all good if you want eb/eb but ewh will cover eb, so you will have a tough time telling ewh/ewh from ewh/eb chicks. and right there, need another doubling of animal hatched numbers. so instead of 64 kids, you'll need 128 kids to get 1 male and 1 female of each.
I am going to assume though that the cornish on both lines are on the eb locus....
and if they are on the ewh/ewh locus then the same argument as above applies....64 birds minimum.
and this all assumes that the spangling is done through darkbrown and columbian and patterning genes...and not mottled.....LOL. if it's through mottled then Robbie would be correct up there!
let's assume that all your birds, the spangled, and the laced, are eb/eb based (more on this later).
parents then should be:
spangled: eb/eb Db/Db co+/co+ Pg/Pg etc etc (rest the same)
Laced: eb/eb db+/db+ Co/Co Pg/Pg etc etc (rest the same)
so 2 genes really at play, Db, and Co. Db/Db is required for spangling-it effectively takes lacing from around the feathers and moves it to the tips. If you add Co/Co then you move that spangling back to a barred like line across the feather and end up with reduced spangling-and this is where i think you are seeing the spangling fading with subsequent moults, because Co is more of an adult restrictor than a chick restrictor.
okay, so all first generation will be split:
eb/eb Db/db+ Co/co+ Pg/Pg etc for simplicity these are Db/db+ Co/co+ and to get your laced back you need Co/Co and db+/db+; to get spangled back you need co+/co+ Db/Db. these 2 genes do not co-segregate....so each individual gene will make its own effect in a single kid, so you MUST get the combo together again to get the "proper" kids back. Twice as many birds right there need to be hatched.
so now, you cross brother and sister. and sister and brother.
you will (without going into the gory details) get
1/32 kids will be spangled (co+/co+ and Db/Db). 1/32 kids will be laced (Co/Co db+/db+). Then there's a mess. 1/32 will be double laced. 5/32 will be half spangled (and probably hidden as they get older). 2/32 kids will be incomplete spangled (no clue how you will tell them apart from half spangled or double laced/half spangled). 2/32 kids will be incomplete laced (no clue how you will tell these apart from laced, or double laced/half spangled). 4/32 will be double laced/half spangled (again, no clue how you will tell these guys apart from the birds you want).
Now, remember this is just for females or males, you will need 64 birds (statistically speaking) to get 1 male and 1 female of each of your laced and your spangled back. so....if you didn't hatch 64 birds minimum.....especially this year where everything seems to be males LOL
you will ONLY get your laced and your spangled back in your next generation IF you have successfully selected the fully laced and fully spangled birds, otherwise you will be restricting your chances of getting them in future generations but not guaranteeing that you WILL get them. unless you carry a large number of birds and cross breed.
Now, if your dark cornish are like mine and i think they are split e+ or e+/Ewh, or ewh/eb.....this greatly complicates things. because now you have 3 genes you need to sort out into the correct combos to get spangled vs laced. the main drivers are still co/co and Db/Db (with Ml/Ml but cornish carry Ml so it's all good). but the e locus will be mixed. if they are ewh/ewh you then will also have to select based on chick down colour in your second generation-the first generation will all be ewh/eb, but the next is 1/4 ewh/eb, 1/2 ewh/eb and 1/4 eb/eb it's all good if you want eb/eb but ewh will cover eb, so you will have a tough time telling ewh/ewh from ewh/eb chicks. and right there, need another doubling of animal hatched numbers. so instead of 64 kids, you'll need 128 kids to get 1 male and 1 female of each.
I am going to assume though that the cornish on both lines are on the eb locus....
and if they are on the ewh/ewh locus then the same argument as above applies....64 birds minimum.
and this all assumes that the spangling is done through darkbrown and columbian and patterning genes...and not mottled.....LOL. if it's through mottled then Robbie would be correct up there!
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Pet quality wheaten/blue wheaten ameraucanas, welsummers, barred rocks, light brown leghorns; Projects on the go: rhodebars, welbars-
windwalkingwolf
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Sounds like some of what I'm getting in my bantam breeding project, except in reverse-- I wasn't aiming for spangled at all but this year I'm getting some spangled birds, and some all white with a single black bar across feathers, really cool.
WLLady, what gene is MI?
WLLady, what gene is MI?
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WLLady
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Ml is melantoic...
Ml plus Pg gives double laced with exceedingly dark roosters like we see in the dark cornish...add Co (columbian restriction) and you get single laced because columbian kinda counteracts the lacing somewhat. Spangling is all three Ml plus Pg plus Db but without Co. If you add Co to the three you actually get laced back but single laced and add lacing to the tail of all places. The transverse bars are Db and Pg without Ml and without Co. So your birds with the bars do not have Co or Ml so you could tailer your next breedings depending on if you need or dont want Ml and/or Co.
Ml plus Pg gives double laced with exceedingly dark roosters like we see in the dark cornish...add Co (columbian restriction) and you get single laced because columbian kinda counteracts the lacing somewhat. Spangling is all three Ml plus Pg plus Db but without Co. If you add Co to the three you actually get laced back but single laced and add lacing to the tail of all places. The transverse bars are Db and Pg without Ml and without Co. So your birds with the bars do not have Co or Ml so you could tailer your next breedings depending on if you need or dont want Ml and/or Co.
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Pet quality wheaten/blue wheaten ameraucanas, welsummers, barred rocks, light brown leghorns; Projects on the go: rhodebars, welbarsGenetic experts needed
WLLady wrote:QR_BBPOST alright....how i see it.....
let's assume that all your birds, the spangled, and the laced, are eb/eb based (more on this later).
parents then should be:
spangled: eb/eb Db/Db co+/co+ Pg/Pg etc etc (rest the same)
Laced: eb/eb db+/db+ Co/Co Pg/Pg etc etc (rest the same)
so 2 genes really at play, Db, and Co. Db/Db is required for spangling-it effectively takes lacing from around the feathers and moves it to the tips. If you add Co/Co then you move that spangling back to a barred like line across the feather and end up with reduced spangling-and this is where i think you are seeing the spangling fading with subsequent moults, because Co is more of an adult restrictor than a chick restrictor.
okay, so all first generation will be split:
eb/eb Db/db+ Co/co+ Pg/Pg etc for simplicity these are Db/db+ Co/co+ and to get your laced back you need Co/Co and db+/db+; to get spangled back you need co+/co+ Db/Db. these 2 genes do not co-segregate....so each individual gene will make its own effect in a single kid, so you MUST get the combo together again to get the "proper" kids back. Twice as many birds right there need to be hatched.
so now, you cross brother and sister. and sister and brother.
you will (without going into the gory details) get
1/32 kids will be spangled (co+/co+ and Db/Db). 1/32 kids will be laced (Co/Co db+/db+). Then there's a mess. 1/32 will be double laced. 5/32 will be half spangled (and probably hidden as they get older). 2/32 kids will be incomplete spangled (no clue how you will tell them apart from half spangled or double laced/half spangled). 2/32 kids will be incomplete laced (no clue how you will tell these apart from laced, or double laced/half spangled). 4/32 will be double laced/half spangled (again, no clue how you will tell these guys apart from the birds you want).
Now, remember this is just for females or males, you will need 64 birds (statistically speaking) to get 1 male and 1 female of each of your laced and your spangled back. so....if you didn't hatch 64 birds minimum.....especially this year where everything seems to be males LOL
you will ONLY get your laced and your spangled back in your next generation IF you have successfully selected the fully laced and fully spangled birds, otherwise you will be restricting your chances of getting them in future generations but not guaranteeing that you WILL get them. unless you carry a large number of birds and cross breed.
Now, if your dark cornish are like mine and i think they are split e+ or e+/Ewh, or ewh/eb.....this greatly complicates things. because now you have 3 genes you need to sort out into the correct combos to get spangled vs laced. the main drivers are still co/co and Db/Db (with Ml/Ml but cornish carry Ml so it's all good). but the e locus will be mixed. if they are ewh/ewh you then will also have to select based on chick down colour in your second generation-the first generation will all be ewh/eb, but the next is 1/4 ewh/eb, 1/2 ewh/eb and 1/4 eb/eb it's all good if you want eb/eb but ewh will cover eb, so you will have a tough time telling ewh/ewh from ewh/eb chicks. and right there, need another doubling of animal hatched numbers. so instead of 64 kids, you'll need 128 kids to get 1 male and 1 female of each.
I am going to assume though that the cornish on both lines are on the eb locus....
and if they are on the ewh/ewh locus then the same argument as above applies....64 birds minimum.
and this all assumes that the spangling is done through darkbrown and columbian and patterning genes...and not mottled.....LOL. if it's through mottled then Robbie would be correct up there!
Oops now I'm confused- I thought spangling was a combo of genes shoving the pigment colour to the tip of the feather, (like a Brabanter) mottling was absence of colour in the feather tip, always white - you are saying you can get white spangling?
I'd always assumed that the name Spangled cornish really should be mille fleur cornish to explain the colour? ( maybe that sounds too "girly" for the cornish crowd? hee hee)
PS I think my dark cornish are also a combo of e+ and eb, based on the chick down..... but I've never seen a spangled bantam cornish chick or a picture of one.
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