The spangled cornish are really more of a mottled cornish, I think all cornish breeders agree it's a misnamer they are not spangled as such or even millefleur.
Chick down colour on the dark Cornish is dark yellow with dark chipmunk strips, spangled cornish are a lighter yellow colour with lighter chipmunk strips.
Chicks are spangled at first feathering in but I am starting to see less as they mature, by a couple months old.
Thanks everyone for the assistance.
Question Genetic experts needed
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WLLady
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Genetic experts needed
Hm.....then it does sound like the tips that you are seeing would be related to ewh (wheaten). it's a very common thing for the heritage rhode island reds that are wheaten based to have white tips especially on the wings that then darken up under the influence of the Co restriction. So what i was reading was based on spangled cornish out of the USA and europe, and they're eb/eb Db/Db co+/co+ Pg/Pg Ml/Ml.....or ewh/ewh with all the others-depending on the lines.
My cornish (which aren't mine anymore but clawton and baronrenfrew's) are definitely NOT ewh LOL. they're too chipmunky. brownish yellow chicks with white, dark brown and light brown stripes. so either eb with a bunch of modifiers or worse e+....but i would suspect eb/e+ because eb is the "best" e locus (as is ewh) for getting the double lacing that the dark cornish *should* have (saying should because that's all theoretical really-there are cornish that are not laced...)
so the white to the wingtips is mottling robbie as i understand it. My previous post on Pg, Db and Co has the result of the dark lacing will be pushed around by those loci-giving you spangled..... on a white bird the feather stays white, but the lacing would be dark, and then pushed into a lacing pattern, or a transverse bar across the white, or into concentric lines across the feather but in the same general pattern as lacing (so curved along the profile of the feather).
so i would think the spangled cornish are probably on a ewh background, while the dark are eb....just from your description of the chicks, Kenya. with ewh (wheaten) it's difficult to get full dark striping, but light and/or broken stripes are extremely common. you can see some of this with wheaten marans chicks-quite often they have a broken brown stripe dorsally. but it's never a full stripe, and never really really dark. sometimes an almost black spot on the head, but not the nice dark crisp lines on the cornish chicks.
so.....the way i see it (and i may be wrong) is that mottled is a recessive gene-need 2 copies to have it express, and involves black and white with white being the exclusion of ground colour from the feather. Spangled doesn't involve white, but is based on a gold bird and involves moving dark colour around a background coloured base....? So the dark cornish to me would be spangled, gold birds with dark being moved around, and a spangled cornish would be dark flecks/lines/markings on the gold background, while a mottled cornish would have white as well....and some folks also think that mille fleur patterning/colouring involves Db, Ml, Co, Mo and Pg.....
i have no clue if i helped at all....probably more likely hindered the conversation!!!!!
My cornish (which aren't mine anymore but clawton and baronrenfrew's) are definitely NOT ewh LOL. they're too chipmunky. brownish yellow chicks with white, dark brown and light brown stripes. so either eb with a bunch of modifiers or worse e+....but i would suspect eb/e+ because eb is the "best" e locus (as is ewh) for getting the double lacing that the dark cornish *should* have (saying should because that's all theoretical really-there are cornish that are not laced...)
so the white to the wingtips is mottling robbie as i understand it. My previous post on Pg, Db and Co has the result of the dark lacing will be pushed around by those loci-giving you spangled..... on a white bird the feather stays white, but the lacing would be dark, and then pushed into a lacing pattern, or a transverse bar across the white, or into concentric lines across the feather but in the same general pattern as lacing (so curved along the profile of the feather).
so i would think the spangled cornish are probably on a ewh background, while the dark are eb....just from your description of the chicks, Kenya. with ewh (wheaten) it's difficult to get full dark striping, but light and/or broken stripes are extremely common. you can see some of this with wheaten marans chicks-quite often they have a broken brown stripe dorsally. but it's never a full stripe, and never really really dark. sometimes an almost black spot on the head, but not the nice dark crisp lines on the cornish chicks.
so.....the way i see it (and i may be wrong) is that mottled is a recessive gene-need 2 copies to have it express, and involves black and white with white being the exclusion of ground colour from the feather. Spangled doesn't involve white, but is based on a gold bird and involves moving dark colour around a background coloured base....? So the dark cornish to me would be spangled, gold birds with dark being moved around, and a spangled cornish would be dark flecks/lines/markings on the gold background, while a mottled cornish would have white as well....and some folks also think that mille fleur patterning/colouring involves Db, Ml, Co, Mo and Pg.....
i have no clue if i helped at all....probably more likely hindered the conversation!!!!!
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Pet quality wheaten/blue wheaten ameraucanas, welsummers, barred rocks, light brown leghorns; Projects on the go: rhodebars, welbars-
WLLady
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Genetic experts needed
do you have some photos of your ones in question? i think it also depends on what exactly is the definition of "spangled cornish" that you are envisioning-would it be a mille fleur kind of colouration with white and black or just with black dotting instead of lacing? or something completely different?
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Pet quality wheaten/blue wheaten ameraucanas, welsummers, barred rocks, light brown leghorns; Projects on the go: rhodebars, welbars
of course the simple answer is............ you need more chicks!-
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windwalkingwolf
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I don't know if what I have been doing will be helpful to your situation or not, but since it's working for me, I'll list it just in case. My bantam project birds are a real can o' worms gene-wise. Originally started with: solid black hen, 2 black hens with red hackle leakage, white hen with columbian patterning, white hen with blue columbian and partridge patterning, a black cuckoo hen, and a black rooster with yellow (lemon?) hackles, saddles and wingbows. I got a bunch of lovely lawn ornaments, each unique, but then got a big surprise from the cuckoo hen--a mottled cockerel chick with red barring in hackles saddle and wingbows. Just one mottled from that pairing, despite hundreds of chicks LOL, how the boy ended up mottled was a freak of nature, but at any rate, I bred him back to his mother and got ONE pullet just like him (only slightly less red barring). I also got a truckload of chickens just cuckoo, or just black with a few white tips, and some crele as well, both red and black cuckoo on the same birds. Breeding the mottled/red cuckoo hen back to her father who is also her brother (the song "I'm my own Grandpa" comes to mind) I've got a couple "good" mottled birds, a couple with far too much red barring for my taste but usable, and again a crele but he may be an oopsie left over from another rooster, and one spangled-looking guy--I'll have to take a closer look at his feathers to see if he is actually spangled or just multi-coloured mottled, but if you're going for mottled it's a moot point anyway lol. This is generation 3 starting essentially from nothing. First deliberate pairing of son to mother gave me get 3 birds worth using out of over 50 chicks, and only 1 survived to breed (others were eaten by a fox), and so far this go-round of pairing daughter to father/brother, I've got at 1-3 months old, what looks like 5 usable mottled chicks out of approximately 15 hatched. So the numbers are much better, so I'm hatching this pairing as long as I can this season. Unfortunately, the hen is currently on strike lol. The choices for next generation are getting too closely related for my comfort, so when this generation is old enough to breed, I will continue to hatch birds from the best mottleds, and at first sign of problems I will be outcrossing my original rooster and his son to some unrelated mottled hens and three black hens that carry mo and *should* carry pg, and also to the blue mottled girls I got out of the blue partridge hen x "Flock Sire", and see how that goes. And also outcross my 'good' hens and pullets to completely unrelated roosters. Hopefully it goes well, because I'm all out of cuckoo girls, so definitely can't backtrack to see if I can reinvent the wheel lol. But anyway, IF no genetic problems start popping up in generation 4 (expected Spring 2017), and based on the timeline/experience so far, I can expect to have the patterns where I want them by generation 5, counting the original anomalous rooster as generation one. If problems pop up and I am outcrossing to completely unrelated birds, no matter how good their mottling/patterning, I may have them where I want them colour-wise by generation 5 or 50, it's a toss of the dice at that point because I won't know their base or what they're 'hiding'. But my very unscientific gut says outcrossing can expect to give me what I'm looking for in usable quantity by generation 7 or 8.
If your spangled birds are actually mottled, your 1st generation crosses spangled with dark cornish, may not show any mottling at all, or they may look like they're going to be mottled when chicks but feather in darker and darker or dark with just the odd stray white tip around 5 months old/final chick moult. Ironically, these guys may also get more and more white tips with each yearly moult as an adult, which can be misleading. These guys will only have one copy of the mottling gene, and you need two copies, so bred back to a fully mottled bird should give you mottled chicks. In theory. In reality, it will give you MOSTLY mottled chicks, and some that only inherit one copy for who-knows-what reason! So go ahead and test mate your best type half dark/half spangleds with your spangleds, pick the best, rinse and repeat. I know you don't like loads of chicks in the house for long, but there's not really any way around it except letting broodies do some of the work, in which case you should probably have 9 or 10 broodies on the go at all times LOL otherwise it will take you 5 times as long as if you just hatch hatch hatch. There really is no substitution for sheer numbers to get good birds, whether working on type, colour or anything else.
Hopefully I didn't go too far outfield, and hopefully your eyes didn't glaze over too much! I have a good friend who interrupts me when it seems I'm about too launch into a long story, he says "TLDR", which stands for Too Long, Didn't Read LMAO! He wasn't here to stop me....
If your spangled birds are actually mottled, your 1st generation crosses spangled with dark cornish, may not show any mottling at all, or they may look like they're going to be mottled when chicks but feather in darker and darker or dark with just the odd stray white tip around 5 months old/final chick moult. Ironically, these guys may also get more and more white tips with each yearly moult as an adult, which can be misleading. These guys will only have one copy of the mottling gene, and you need two copies, so bred back to a fully mottled bird should give you mottled chicks. In theory. In reality, it will give you MOSTLY mottled chicks, and some that only inherit one copy for who-knows-what reason! So go ahead and test mate your best type half dark/half spangleds with your spangleds, pick the best, rinse and repeat. I know you don't like loads of chicks in the house for long, but there's not really any way around it except letting broodies do some of the work, in which case you should probably have 9 or 10 broodies on the go at all times LOL otherwise it will take you 5 times as long as if you just hatch hatch hatch. There really is no substitution for sheer numbers to get good birds, whether working on type, colour or anything else.
Hopefully I didn't go too far outfield, and hopefully your eyes didn't glaze over too much! I have a good friend who interrupts me when it seems I'm about too launch into a long story, he says "TLDR", which stands for Too Long, Didn't Read LMAO! He wasn't here to stop me....
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Genetic experts needed
WWW I would love to see another photo or five or six of your new breed 
Which would be a hijack, but for educational purposes, we need to see those mottles!
Which would be a hijack, but for educational purposes, we need to see those mottles!
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Genetic experts needed
Ha! Ha! No my eyes didn't glaze over too much. I have about 2 dozen eggs I guess are going into the incubator, I just have to wait for the current hatch to finish today or tomorrow. Ahh well more babies.
Yes show us some of your mottled.
Yes show us some of your mottled.
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