Rhode Island Red - Standard Bred

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thegawd
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Rhode Island Red - Standard Bred

Post by thegawd » Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:45 pm

I have permission to reprint this from The Livestock Conservancy https://livestockconservancy.org/index. ... rnal/rired

Rhode Island Red - Non Industrial Chicken

Status - Recovering

The Rhode Island Red is not only America's best known breed, but is perhaps the world's best known fowl. It is the most successful dual purpose bird, and remains an excellent farm chicken. Originally developed in Massachusetts and Rhode Island in the 1880's and 1890's, its ancestors include Malay (hence the deep color), Shanghai, Java, and Brown Leghorn chickens. Its distinctive color and good production qualities helped it to spread rapidly. The single combed variety was admitted to the American Poultry Association's Standard of Perfection in 1904 and the rose combed birds were accepted a year later in 1905.

The originators of the Rhode Island Red wanted to create a bird that could lay a good number of eggs yet dress out nicely as a table bird. These birds are very good layers of brown eggs, perhaps the best layers of all of the dual-purpose breeds. They can lay 200 – 300 eggs a year starting as early as six months of age. Since the 1940's, the Rhode Island Red has been selectively bred for more efficient egg production, becoming smaller, lighter colored, and less broody as a result. Of greatest conservation interest are the "old-type" Rhode Island Reds which are larger, darker, and more broody. These birds are becoming rare as the breed is “improved” to meet industry needs.

The hens of this breed weigh over 6 pounds and the roosters over 8 pounds. The Rhode Island Red is known for its hardiness and its ability to handle marginal conditions while still producing eggs. Some roosters may be aggressive at times. Most hens are peaceful and can become broody except within the strains that have been heavily selected for egg production.
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Al

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Rhode Island Red - Non Industrial

Post by thegawd » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:03 am

Now let's continue the RIR Discussion.

RIRs are the most absolutely perfect dual purpose breed ever produced and by far my favorite breed of fowl. My birds are so docile that they never run from me and I can pretty much pet them. It took me 3 years to find the quality of birds I was looking for and I am so glad I waited it out. Im so happy to be focusing my breeding efforts on RIRs and look forward to working with them forever.

My first chickens ever were RIR Bantams that I hatched out in my first homebuilt incubator, I still have some of those hens but I sadly lost the rooster last fall and I would love to get my hands on another one, If anyone has any leads please shoot me a PM.

I will get some pics posted up here soon but for now, have a good one!
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Rhode Island Red - Non Industrial

Post by la-chicken » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:23 am

I might have a lead on excellent RIR bantams.
I know a lady who has won lots with her birds..if I remember correctly. She was going to stop breeding this year.

I can look into it further.....and if you are needing a rooster. I can always bring it out with me in October.
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Rhode Island Red - Non Industrial

Post by Killerbunny » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:41 am

I couldn't believe the difference the first time I saw a "real" RIR at a show. Just a glorious colour and shape. Good luck AL.
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Rhode Island Red - Non Industrial

Post by SandyM » Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:52 am

Same here KB. There is a lady on one of my drives to hamilton who has chickens and I stopped in once to talk to her about keeping chickens (before I started) . She had RIR's from a hatchery, I can't remember which one as we have a few available sources here.

Then I went to a poultry show (Ancaster fair grounds) and I was admiring a particular set of chickens (Roo & hens) and the plumage and to find out it was a RIR, I was like wait. What? Noooooo way!!! That's when I knew if I was going to keep RIR's at any point in my future they wouldn't be from a hatchery.
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Rhode Island Red - Non Industrial

Post by Robbie » Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:34 am

The genetic difference of the colours between Rhode Island Reds and Buckeyes is fascinating. In the early 1900's RIR's were much lighter in colour than Buckeyes, now it's the other way around. In fact Buckeyes were used back then to darken the RIR's. The RIR is supposedly a wheaten based bird, which confers light feather undercolour but in the case of RIR's but they also have "recessive black" which is a group of (mystery) genes that darken the entire colour of the bird possibly even the undercolour of the feathers. Buckeyes on the other hand, may have "recessive" wheaten, as they are supposed to have a dark bar of slate under the back feathers. There's even the possibliity that an exhibition bird may even have to be a heterozygote, wheaten and brown on the E locus gene together, to get the required exhibition colour. Interestingly, with Buckeyes, it's tough to get a nice even red, especially the hens, and they are prone to fading as they moult over the years. I've been trying to find the "why" reason for this, but it seems to be a mystery. I don't know if Buckeyes have or should have the recessive black group of genes, or some of them. Buckeyes should not be quite as dark as the exhibiton RIR's. You'd think that the two breeds would be very similar genetically but it seems they are not.
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Rhode Island Red - Non Industrial

Post by la-chicken » Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:12 am

Robbie wrote:QR_BBPOST The genetic difference of the colours between Rhode Island Reds and Buckeyes is fascinating. In the early 1900's RIR's were much lighter in colour than Buckeyes, now it's the other way around. In fact Buckeyes were used back then to darken the RIR's. The RIR is supposedly a wheaten based bird, which confers light feather undercolour but in the case of RIR's but they also have "recessive black" which is a group of (mystery) genes that darken the entire colour of the bird possibly even the undercolour of the feathers. Buckeyes on the other hand, may have "recessive" wheaten, as they are supposed to have a dark bar of slate under the back feathers. There's even the possibliity that an exhibition bird may even have to be a heterozygote, wheaten and brown on the E locus gene together, to get the required exhibition colour. Interestingly, with Buckeyes, it's tough to get a nice even red, especially the hens, and they are prone to fading as they moult over the years. I've been trying to find the "why" reason for this, but it seems to be a mystery. I don't know if Buckeyes have or should have the recessive black group of genes, or some of them. Buckeyes should not be quite as dark as the exhibiton RIR's. You'd think that the two breeds would be very similar genetically but it seems they are not.
RIR Breeders have struggled with correct colour just as much as the Buckeye Breeders. Many thanks to Production Hatchery Birds
Buckeyes are dark, rich, velvety red, garnet or dark cardinal in shade, never buff or bricky (As with the male, the 2010 Standard changes this wording to "an even shade of rich mahogany bay"); not red, orange, two toned.

Nettie Metcalf stated: " Leading Rhode Island Red breeders, among them the late R.G. Buffington, advised me to drop the name Buckeye Reds and call mine Rhode Island Reds also, as they seemed to think they were so very similar. The help of a large club appealed to me and I finally took this bad advice, but was careful to keep the rose, single and pea combs yarded separately.

The difference in shape and comb and depth of color, however, convinced me that they ought to be bred to a different standard, and when the Rhode Island Red Club adopted the new standard, cutting out slate in the under color, I knew that standard would never do for Buckeyes. My reason told me that all wild birds of brilliant plumage had slate, or leaden blue, under color, and I felt sure that this dark pigment was necessary in order to retain the dark plumage in the offspring.

So, while I threw in my single combs with the Rhode Island Reds, and bred them in their standard, my pea combs were bred along the old lines, and I returned to the old standard and name of the Buckeye Reds. This old standard called for “a bar of slate across the feathers of the back, next to the surface color, the rest of the under color being red.”

In December, 1902, I fitted up a pen of single comb Rhode Island Reds and a pair of Buckeyes for the Cleveland show, at the same time submitting a standard for the Buckeyes and petitioned the American Poultry Association to admit them to the standard. This was the first official showing for both breeds, the rule governing the admission of new breeds requiring that two generations must be shown at three annual meetings of the American Poultry Association. I lost the year 1902 by showing at an adjourned, instead of a regular meeting, showing at Indianapolis instead of Hagerstown. Therefore the technicality kept the Buckeyes out of the standard until 1905, while the Rhode Island Reds, single comb, were admitted in 1904." ( From ABC History)

*****Now the difference is summed up in a way briefly; The Buckeye should be as much darker in color than the accepted Rhode Island Red as the Rhode Island Red is darker than the Buff breeds. Their plumage should be so dark as to male as to look almost black in some lights, garnet red being as near a description as I can give. The shape should resemble the Cornish Game, but the Buckeye is not so hard in feather and has more fluffiness of plumage, but not so much as the Rhode Island Red. The comb of the Buckeye is a pea comb, small and close fitting to the head, and the weight of the bird is much greater than is apparent from the size,
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Rhode Island Red - Non Industrial

Post by WLLady » Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:16 am

So, in my understanding production based RIR are quite commonly e+ based (chipmunk striped chicks). The heritage (and most commonly the exhibition) RIR are eWh based at the E locus (as an aside, this is a royal PITA for those of us using the heritage lines to produce rhodebars). Both buckeyes and RIR are columbian restricted (Co/Co), so that should "push" the darker more into the wing/tail tips. The heritage RIR are Db/Db, which will move colour around and solidify and darken the body up some, and i wonder if through the generations the Buckeyes had but then lost Db/Db, or are Db/db or gained some modifiers of Db....
The biggest difference in columbian restriction i can think of is the wheaten marans vs black tailed buff marans. The existance of Co/Co in the BTBM forces the darker wheaten body colour in the reddish buff sports thrown by the WM lines in Canada while forcing black out of the wing bar and the chest, allowing for deepening of the wheaten based colour to buff across the body. Because the BTBM is Co/Co they restrict black to the tail/wings, and then the body changes to deeper ground colour proportionately over that of the WM simply through Co/Co homozygosity. The hets are leaky, and i suspect many of the non-show quality WM are Co/co, but when paired with the proper boy throw amazing show quality offspring.
So, if the buckeyes are Co/Co, you'd expect darker more solid coloured body, but if they are also Db/Db like the heritage RIR, i would expect further darkening of the body with the "more black" creeping in across the chest, wings and back. I'm not sure the stripe on the dorsal surface means anything for feather color, since that is extremely common in eWh/eWh based chicks....but i suspect that Db is playing with Co and the buckeyes used to once have those traits, and possibly got selected away from it to distinguish them from the RIRs coming up. Or the buckeyes ended up with some other unknown modifier...and i hope that isn't eb creeping in....because trying to segregate an eWh/eWh from eWh/eb is not the easiest task in the world.
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Rhode Island Red - Non Industrial

Post by BobG » Thu Apr 14, 2016 11:10 am

Al , Talk to Pete Kortis about red bantams .
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Rhode Island Red - Non Industrial

Post by Robbie » Thu Apr 14, 2016 12:17 pm

WLLady wrote:QR_BBPOST So, in my understanding production based RIR are quite commonly e+ based (chipmunk striped chicks). The heritage (and most commonly the exhibition) RIR are eWh based at the E locus (as an aside, this is a royal PITA for those of us using the heritage lines to produce rhodebars). Both buckeyes and RIR are columbian restricted (Co/Co), so that should "push" the darker more into the wing/tail tips. The heritage RIR are Db/Db, which will move colour around and solidify and darken the body up some, and i wonder if through the generations the Buckeyes had but then lost Db/Db, or are Db/db or gained some modifiers of Db....
The biggest difference in columbian restriction i can think of is the wheaten marans vs black tailed buff marans. The existance of Co/Co in the BTBM forces the darker wheaten body colour in the reddish buff sports thrown by the WM lines in Canada while forcing black out of the wing bar and the chest, allowing for deepening of the wheaten based colour to buff across the body. Because the BTBM is Co/Co they restrict black to the tail/wings, and then the body changes to deeper ground colour proportionately over that of the WM simply through Co/Co homozygosity. The hets are leaky, and i suspect many of the non-show quality WM are Co/co, but when paired with the proper boy throw amazing show quality offspring.
So, if the buckeyes are Co/Co, you'd expect darker more solid coloured body, but if they are also Db/Db like the heritage RIR, i would expect further darkening of the body with the "more black" creeping in across the chest, wings and back. I'm not sure the stripe on the dorsal surface means anything for feather color, since that is extremely common in eWh/eWh based chicks....but i suspect that Db is playing with Co and the buckeyes used to once have those traits, and possibly got selected away from it to distinguish them from the RIRs coming up. Or the buckeyes ended up with some other unknown modifier...and i hope that isn't eb creeping in....because trying to segregate an eWh/eWh from eWh/eb is not the easiest task in the world.
Like!
That's very interesting! It's true, there are lots of two and even three toned Buckeyes around, there have been complaints that the ALBC lines have become too orange among other things. Buckeyes from the east coast seem to be e+, but most of the chicks I've seen pictures of or had seem to be yellow to yellow with red tips elsewhere but they don't seem to have really visible stripes (except for the e+ ones, they look totally different! Almost like they aren't even Buckeyes at first although they finish OK.) It's interesting what you said about Db going missing in the Buckeyes, occasionally black does show up in the rooster breast and in the hen's bodies....... maybe that's the missing piece of this puzzle?
Is there any way to tell if Db is present in these chicks? I thought that Db affected the chick down or is that only on other E- locus genes? I'd be surprised if modern RIR (and even rumors of partridge chantecler, and cornish) wasn't in that Buckeye background somewhere. Although everyone denies it ;-)
Nettie Metcalf thought that the bar of slate in the back feathers was necessary for dark colour but if so I don't understand how the modern RIR doesn't need to have that, or how my very, very orange mystery cross rooster (no Buckeye in there at all) had perfect slate bars everywhere :-/
My rooster actually has pretty good colour, but he's weak on the slate bars- they are more like slate blotches here and there. I'm afraid I'll lose that if I'm not careful with breeding.
Do the heritage RIR's fade with age too? Happens very fast in the Buckeyes. I wonder what the mechanism is for fading or not fading?

Gawd I hope this isn't hijacking, I hope that we can each gain an understanding of how to breed such similar (well at least colour wise!) birds to their best potential colour wise.
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