White Welsummers
White Welsummers
Anyone ever hatch white welsummers? I've had 2 egg buyers hatch yellow chicks with there welsummer eggs. I figured I sent some delaware eggs by mistake.. delaware eggs are lighter in colour and have no spots on them. and welsummers are dark and spotted. Googled it and apparently white sports can happen. Thoughts????
0
-
Killerbunny
- Poultry Guru - total zen level
- Posts: 7887
- Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 12:04 pm
- Location: Brockville
- x 10179
White Welsummers
I think Heyden means a genetic sport.
0
Beltsville Small White turkeys.
Mutt chickens for eggs
RIP Stephen the BSW Tom and my coffee companion.
RIP Lucky the Very Brave Splash Wyandotte rooster.
RIP little Muppet the rescue cat.
-
WLLady
- Stringy Old Soup Pot Hen of a Moderator
- Posts: 5616
- Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:55 pm
- Location: Rural near West Lorne and Glencoe
- x 8538
White Welsummers
i have had that happen-infuriating, and i think i know where it comes from too! but, it is actually to your advantage if you want to develop your own silver welbar lines-just saying....LOL.
welsummers quite often get crossed with marans (of any kind) to darken the eggs. So, weird things sometimes happen, like feathered legs in the 4rth and 5th generation.....(argh! yes, from experience, with a very good quality welsummer line too).
in my research if your welsummer line (or theirs) is from the USA originally (not sure the exact source) it was apparently crossed with a very dark laying white marans line. the white sport could be the recessive white from the marans line "clicking" and coming out. The rationale behind that was that the marans line was supposed to be dominant white, so first generation would be all white girls and boys when welsummer boy bred to the white marans girls, select the darkest eggs, hatch and breed the kids together (girls should have darker eggs, but not as dark as mom's but darker than the original dad's line) and throw out any white birds and carry on-sounds simple right? works great if the marans are actually ONLY dominant white.....thing is, dominant white and recessive white are not the same genetic locus and it looks like the white marans may carry both dominant and recessive white OR they are recessive white-depending on the line/who made them etc, in which case all the kids would look welsummer and have darker eggs unless the marans are E or ER locus, in which case they'd look more marans-ish.....if the breeder isn't really careful that will come back in the next generation as white sports when bred with siblings, or birds from the same line even some generations further on, because bringing in a new male would cover the recessive white, but it would still be hanging out.....just waiting.....for the opportune time....
the other possibility is that someone else accidentally got in there-a dominant white male with eWh or E or ER e locus jumped the fence..... welsummers should be on a e+/e+ background (chipmunky striped) and that can be incompletely covered with wheaten or E...wheaten will give a lighter brown all over chick, but if dominant white is involved on wheaten or E the e+ will be covered up and solid chicks then modified to white on the background-yellow solid chicks. if they breed those kids together we could figure out exactly what happened genetically..... if someone jumped the fence it would have to be on E or ER (probably) or eWh (less likely - chicks would still have partial striping and be very noticeable) and carry dominant white....if you have any breeds that fit that bill that is the most likely explanation....the KISS principle....but if there's no way for that to happen then i would actively investigate your parents for the possibility of recessive white from a marans cross in the past, and try to weed it out-hatch lots and get rid of any and all chicks from your breeding program that are not dark striped chipmunks with good eyeliner and solid striping.
just thank the powers that be that they didn't use a wheaten marans-otherwise you would end up with red sports, carrying mahogany (! yes, lots of the wheaten marans lines in canada carry mahogany, going back to a bad cross that was done to try to improve the wheaten marans line originally) that really messes up the males colour in the welsummer (guess what i'm wrestling with??!! LOL), then you get a beautiful rich reddish brown hen, beautiful colouring, and the males end up muddy as all get out, and trying to breed out the feathered legs and the mahogany....well, i have the feathered leg thing under control now, but the mahogany is driving me insane (apparently only 1 copy is enough to disrupt the boys)...and this all happened because i brought in a nice looking boy 2 years ago to supplement my gene pool, and viola, in 2 generations i had feathered legs popping up. GAH! I know the previous breeders had the best of intentions, and no genetic background....so i totally understand the mistake, but now getting it out is difficult because some of the traits are dominant and some are recessive, and the recessives don't pop up all the time-you need 2 copies to have it happen and not be covered up-so i end up culling like crazy.
welsummers quite often get crossed with marans (of any kind) to darken the eggs. So, weird things sometimes happen, like feathered legs in the 4rth and 5th generation.....(argh! yes, from experience, with a very good quality welsummer line too).
in my research if your welsummer line (or theirs) is from the USA originally (not sure the exact source) it was apparently crossed with a very dark laying white marans line. the white sport could be the recessive white from the marans line "clicking" and coming out. The rationale behind that was that the marans line was supposed to be dominant white, so first generation would be all white girls and boys when welsummer boy bred to the white marans girls, select the darkest eggs, hatch and breed the kids together (girls should have darker eggs, but not as dark as mom's but darker than the original dad's line) and throw out any white birds and carry on-sounds simple right? works great if the marans are actually ONLY dominant white.....thing is, dominant white and recessive white are not the same genetic locus and it looks like the white marans may carry both dominant and recessive white OR they are recessive white-depending on the line/who made them etc, in which case all the kids would look welsummer and have darker eggs unless the marans are E or ER locus, in which case they'd look more marans-ish.....if the breeder isn't really careful that will come back in the next generation as white sports when bred with siblings, or birds from the same line even some generations further on, because bringing in a new male would cover the recessive white, but it would still be hanging out.....just waiting.....for the opportune time....
the other possibility is that someone else accidentally got in there-a dominant white male with eWh or E or ER e locus jumped the fence..... welsummers should be on a e+/e+ background (chipmunky striped) and that can be incompletely covered with wheaten or E...wheaten will give a lighter brown all over chick, but if dominant white is involved on wheaten or E the e+ will be covered up and solid chicks then modified to white on the background-yellow solid chicks. if they breed those kids together we could figure out exactly what happened genetically..... if someone jumped the fence it would have to be on E or ER (probably) or eWh (less likely - chicks would still have partial striping and be very noticeable) and carry dominant white....if you have any breeds that fit that bill that is the most likely explanation....the KISS principle....but if there's no way for that to happen then i would actively investigate your parents for the possibility of recessive white from a marans cross in the past, and try to weed it out-hatch lots and get rid of any and all chicks from your breeding program that are not dark striped chipmunks with good eyeliner and solid striping.
just thank the powers that be that they didn't use a wheaten marans-otherwise you would end up with red sports, carrying mahogany (! yes, lots of the wheaten marans lines in canada carry mahogany, going back to a bad cross that was done to try to improve the wheaten marans line originally) that really messes up the males colour in the welsummer (guess what i'm wrestling with??!! LOL), then you get a beautiful rich reddish brown hen, beautiful colouring, and the males end up muddy as all get out, and trying to breed out the feathered legs and the mahogany....well, i have the feathered leg thing under control now, but the mahogany is driving me insane (apparently only 1 copy is enough to disrupt the boys)...and this all happened because i brought in a nice looking boy 2 years ago to supplement my gene pool, and viola, in 2 generations i had feathered legs popping up. GAH! I know the previous breeders had the best of intentions, and no genetic background....so i totally understand the mistake, but now getting it out is difficult because some of the traits are dominant and some are recessive, and the recessives don't pop up all the time-you need 2 copies to have it happen and not be covered up-so i end up culling like crazy.
3
Pet quality wheaten/blue wheaten ameraucanas, welsummers, barred rocks, light brown leghorns; Projects on the go: rhodebars, welbars
White Welsummers
looked a photos chicks aren't any whiter than any i have hatched, guess when you never hatched welsummers before you don't know that they hatch out dark and light brown in colour.
0
White Welsummers
Theoretically you can sex wellsummers at a day old, the females are darker, the males more silvery but from what I've read it's not always obvious and not completely reliable.
0
-
WLLady
- Stringy Old Soup Pot Hen of a Moderator
- Posts: 5616
- Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:55 pm
- Location: Rural near West Lorne and Glencoe
- x 8538
White Welsummers
girls also have very very heavy eyeliner and lines, and the triangle on the top of the head is completely solid dark brown with no broken edges. boys are lighter, with lighter brown triangle on the head, broken side lines and the eyeliner/lines are much lighter.
1
Pet quality wheaten/blue wheaten ameraucanas, welsummers, barred rocks, light brown leghorns; Projects on the go: rhodebars, welbars-
WLLady
- Stringy Old Soup Pot Hen of a Moderator
- Posts: 5616
- Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:55 pm
- Location: Rural near West Lorne and Glencoe
- x 8538
White Welsummers
do you have any pictures of them?heyden wrote:QR_BBPOST looked a photos chicks aren't any whiter than any i have hatched, guess when you never hatched welsummers before you don't know that they hatch out dark and light brown in colour.
0
Pet quality wheaten/blue wheaten ameraucanas, welsummers, barred rocks, light brown leghorns; Projects on the go: rhodebars, welbars