Identifying illness through manure analysis

Jaye · Post by **Jaye** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:36 am

http://chat.allotment-garden.org/?topic=17568.0

Thought I'd share this link again. It was discussed on PTO's predecessor, but wasn't able to find it on PTO.
The reason why I've been referring to it again myself is because I have a hen that is doing poorly, and I'm trying to figure out what's wrong.
She falls into the green watery manure category. I thought it could be just a passing thing, but it's been getting worse instead of better. I have been doing a fair bit of research into possible causes. and have read that it could be something internal going on, anything from internal laying to organ failure to cancer to hardware disease. I checked her for parasites, tried palpating her abdomen for signs of internal laying, which I thought could be the problem in her case because she started laying again in February briefly and then stopped. Her crop doesn't appear impacted.
This morning there was very little substance to the manure - mostly green water with urates - and she tried to fool me into thinking she's still eating by standing with the others at the food dishes, but not actually pecking at the food. This is new since yesterday, because was still eating and drinking and going after meal worms and sunflower seeds as recently as last evening. The day before she was out in the yard with the others, and that's the first time I noticed that something was really off with her, because she went back and just stood outside the run quite a while before it started to get dark and the rest of the flock started heading back.
I will be giving her an Epsoms salts bath this evening to see if that helps.
Does anyone have any other suggestions on what to do?

Ontario Chick · Post by **Ontario Chick** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 10:51 am

Just couple of questions, how old is she? and have you checked if she can see?
I would hold off on bath, it's just adding another stress she doesn't need?

Jaye · Post by **Jaye** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:15 am

Ontario Chick wrote:Just couple of questions, how old is she? and have you checked if she can see?
I would hold off on bath, it's just adding another stress she doesn't need?

She's a spring 2014 hatch, so just over two years old.
I haven't checked if she can see yet, but do that when I get home this evening. So, just check her eyes for cataracts and check if she will follow my hand if I have treats in it?
I agree with you on holding off on the bath. That's one of the reasons why I held off when she first started showing obvious signs of something not right. She hasn't lost status on the roost, so I thought that was a positive thing. Maybe not. :-(

windwalkingwolf · Post by **windwalkingwolf** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:45 am

When you have her inside, try feeding her goodies to see if she actually eats anything at all. Green watery manure means she's not eating enough. Some vitamins in the water wouldn't hurt, super booster if you have it, which not only has vitamins and minerals but may also increase the permeability of intestinal walls so she can possibly better absorb anything she does actually eat. Sick chickens often pretend to eat their favourite treats but will drop the food instead of swallowing it. VERY sick chickens will push it around or just stand there. Chicken metabolism is so high that only a very few days of not eating can make them too weak to stand. As to why she has no appetite, there's lots of things it could be, but personally I rule out bullying, intestinal worms and infection first and then decide from there. As OC said, poor eyesight is another possiblility. When you have her inside, put water in front of her and dip her beak in it. If she starts to 'hunt' for the water dish and then drinks like no tomorrow, there's a definite eyesight problem. I've got one of those in the house right now, she's been in here for four months. Her eyes look completely normal, and she can see the food and water dishes well enough to walk towards them, but once there she seems to have trouble determining exactly where the part is that she's supposed to peck at...if her dishes are moved even a little, she has to hunt and peck until she connects with what she wants.
Cancer as we think of it doesn't generally affect chickens. Tumours and weird internal growths are almost always the result of a herpes infection, and not what we think of as cancer, though the observations, symptoms and results are identical.

Jaye · Post by **Jaye** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:17 pm

windwalkingwolf wrote:QR_BBPOST When you have her inside, try feeding her goodies to see if she actually eats anything at all. Green watery manure means she's not eating enough. Some vitamins in the water wouldn't hurt, super booster if you have it, which not only has vitamins and minerals but may also increase the permeability of intestinal walls so she can possibly better absorb anything she does actually eat. Sick chickens often pretend to eat their favourite treats but will drop the food instead of swallowing it. VERY sick chickens will push it around or just stand there. Chicken metabolism is so high that only a very few days of not eating can make them too weak to stand. As to why she has no appetite, there's lots of things it could be, but personally I rule out bullying, intestinal worms and infection first and then decide from there. As OC said, poor eyesight is another possiblility. When you have her inside, put water in front of her and dip her beak in it. If she starts to 'hunt' for the water dish and then drinks like no tomorrow, there's a definite eyesight problem. I've got one of those in the house right now, she's been in here for four months. Her eyes look completely normal, and she can see the food and water dishes well enough to walk towards them, but once there she seems to have trouble determining exactly where the part is that she's supposed to peck at...if her dishes are moved even a little, she has to hunt and peck until she connects with what she wants.
Cancer as we think of it doesn't generally affect chickens. Tumours and weird internal growths are almost always the result of a herpes infection, and not what we think of as cancer, though the observations, symptoms and results are identical.

WWW, thanks for posting: you've given me lots to investigate and to think about!

I know the hen in question had a pretty good appetite up until Tuesday, because I was watching her carefully after the standing at the gate to the run episode on Monday evening. Last night I gave them all their favourite treats (mealworms and hulled sunflower seeds) and she was going for them and eating them, as far as I could tell. I saw her drink on my spy cam before she went to roost on Monday night, but to be honest I have not seen her drink since. either because I wasn't there when it happened, or it just didn't happen. This morning's thing about coming down to the feed dish along with the others, but just standing there really scared me, because as you said, it''s a sign of a really sick chicken if if she fakes eating or just doesn't even go through the motions at all.
I don't think bullying is really a problem because she's fairly high up in the pecking order, but I will keep an eye out for that.
You mention that tumours are often a result of a herpes infection: what would cause a herpes infection, and how can you tell if a hen has it? I know that they are masters of ill health cover-up, but this came out of left field for me. I realize now that the fact that she stopped laying should have been a red flag, but I had two hens do the same thing at the same time, so thought it might be parasites, which it wasn't. The second hen was back to laying last week.
Anyway, I'll bring her inside and keep her inside at least until tomorrow evening to monitor feed and water intake, and do the tests you suggested. We'll see what happens.

That's so weird about your "semi-blind" hen. It almost sounds like a retinal hole. but since I don't know much about chicken eye physiology, maybe they don't even have retinas.

Post by **WLLady** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:24 pm

i completely second www's post. all of it.
green watery is not eating. and the ONLY time it MIGHT be sortof normal is a broody that is within a day of hatching.

you can also try a wee bit of sugar in the water to give her some energy along with the electrolytes/vitamins/etc.

the blindness is an increase in size of the blind spot they have. they have a blind spot directly in front of their beak, usually quite small, but it's the reason they tip and move their heads when pecking the ground. if that blind spot increases they can get there, but once there they can't find it. even though it's right in front of them. people can do the same thing-any good neurologist will test your blind spot (yes we have one but our brains compensate for it). if it's bigger or in the wrong spot they can tell if there's a brain issue like a small stroke or embolism or sometimes damage from a concussion etc.

another thing i would check....check for ascites-it's a major fluid build up in the abdomen. feel back down the breast bone (if she's not eating it's be quite sharp, if she hasn't lost condition you'll feel the breast meat on either side. keep going, towards the vent on her tummy-past the bones and just behind the legs. she should be soft but not turgid-if she feels like a water balloon back there (past the bones, on the underside just behind the legs) she has a major build up of fluid in her abdomen, this is extremely common with severe egg binding and heart and kidney issues and sometimes with the tumours. the body doesn't know what to do with the fluid so it collects in the abdominal space, and can get to a high enough pressure that the intestinal tract "strangles" from the pressure of it. there is no treatment for this because as soon as you drain any of the liquid it just builds up again, very rapidly...and is a symptom of a much bigger issue. meat birds are very prone to this-the cornish cross and fast growing meat bird strains, but i have seen it in layer hens too and heritage breeds...any breed can suffer from it.

Jaye · Post by **Jaye** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 7:10 pm

WLLady wrote:QR_BBPOST i completely second www's post. all of it.
green watery is not eating. and the ONLY time it MIGHT be sortof normal is a broody that is within a day of hatching.

you can also try a wee bit of sugar in the water to give her some energy along with the electrolytes/vitamins/etc.

the blindness is an increase in size of the blind spot they have. they have a blind spot directly in front of their beak, usually quite small, but it's the reason they tip and move their heads when pecking the ground. if that blind spot increases they can get there, but once there they can't find it. even though it's right in front of them. people can do the same thing-any good neurologist will test your blind spot (yes we have one but our brains compensate for it). if it's bigger or in the wrong spot they can tell if there's a brain issue like a small stroke or embolism or sometimes damage from a concussion etc.

another thing i would check....check for ascites-it's a major fluid build up in the abdomen. feel back down the breast bone (if she's not eating it's be quite sharp, if she hasn't lost condition you'll feel the breast meat on either side. keep going, towards the vent on her tummy-past the bones and just behind the legs. she should be soft but not turgid-if she feels like a water balloon back there (past the bones, on the underside just behind the legs) she has a major build up of fluid in her abdomen, this is extremely common with severe egg binding and heart and kidney issues and sometimes with the tumours. the body doesn't know what to do with the fluid so it collects in the abdominal space, and can get to a high enough pressure that the intestinal tract "strangles" from the pressure of it. there is no treatment for this because as soon as you drain any of the liquid it just builds up again, very rapidly...and is a symptom of a much bigger issue. meat birds are very prone to this-the cornish cross and fast growing meat bird strains, but i have seen it in layer hens too and heritage breeds...any breed can suffer from it.

Thanks so much for this, WLLady. Thank you WWW and OC as well - this is such a help to me. I'm just waiting for everyone to get back into the coop and settled in before I attempt to remove Annemieke. She's been on the roost for a good half hour already. When I fed her some treats, she did eat them. I noticed that her rear end was constantly pulsing. Oh, and her butt fluff is covered in nasty green poo. I am going to bring her in, check for Ascites (please, no!), and give her an Epsom salts bath and blow dry. If it weren't for the fact that she's a mess back there, I would jsut leave her be and forego the bath.

Post by **WLLady** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:21 pm

She may be egg bound if she is constantly straining. Warm water will help loosen any tight muscles if she has monster egg stuck or something

Jaye · Post by **Jaye** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:23 am

Last night I gave her an Epsom salts bath soak while I worked at cleaning up her fluff. That stuff really turns to cement. Anyway, while I was cleaning her up I did a bit of an inspection, and found that her breast bone was quite pronounced, her crop felt pretty empty, and her abdominal space didn't seem really distended or squishy, not like a water balloon at all. That's good I guess. After the wash and blow-dry, she looked presentable again; she seemed to not mind the soak and grooming. She did eat the treats I offered her afterwards and was quite enthusiastic about eating, but she didn't drink any of the water I offered. This morning she did drink though, but didn't eat - at least not while I was watching. And she's still got the runny green poo happening. She did seem perkier though. I added Stress-Aid to the water. I don't think there is anything wrong with her eyesight: she spotted and targetted the meal worms without any trouble or help from me, and her eyes were clear and bright. I guess I will just keep watching her for now and see what happens. Thanks for all your help everyone.

windwalkingwolf · Post by **windwalkingwolf** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:12 am

Jaye wrote:QR_BBPOST

You mention that tumours are often a result of a herpes infection: what would cause a herpes infection, and how can you tell if a hen has it?

Unfortunately, if it's a chronic infection rather than a sudden/acute one, it can be difficult to tell until necropsy. Marek's is one of the herpes viruses, but other chicken diseases and deficiencies have similar symptoms. Unless her eyes have turned gray or cloudy...that symptom is rare but it's tell-tale. Paralysis is the well-know symptom of acute Marek's, due to tumours growing on nerves, but she could also have a latent infection from vaccine, or other birds. ILT is another one,it presents as a respiratory illness and birds cough blood in the acute form. Short of a necropsy or putting suspect birds in with known non-carrier 'sacrificial' birds for a year or two, there's no way to know for sure unless you're sure of her health history. Herpes infections can remain hidden, grow tumours and cause scarification and adhesions in intestinal walls and reproductive tract, and replace organs with pus and scar tissue. That happened to one of my ILT survivors. She was affected only mildly when my flock got it, and recovered quickly (or so I thought), but remained fairly thin even though she ate like a horse...then a few months later suddenly started losing weight again until she was nothing but bones and feathers, still eating loads. She surprisingly didn't go off food until the day I put her down, she just suddenly wouldn't eat and couldn't get up. When I necropsied her, I found she had no kidneys or ovaries left on one side and most of the other--they had been replaced by abnormal tissue and infection--and her intestines and oviduct had scarred to themselves wherever there was a fold or a loop, and she was unable to metabolize nutrients. Makes me worry for the other survivors, but so far so good.

The pulsing vent is most likely a result of the diarrhea--she feels like she has to p00p, her intestines are irritated from too much bile and not enough food. It's very odd that the watery p00p iwould end up all stuck to her, unless she's been lying in it or she has a yeast infection, which can also cause inappetence. Do you give her ACV? If so, stop and get her some good probiotics. Actually, they're probably a good idea in any case.