Question Mystery Respiratory Illness

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windwalkingwolf
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Mystery Respiratory Illness

Post by windwalkingwolf » Wed Nov 23, 2016 4:34 pm

Update: Almonte Veterinary does have a vet willing to treat poultry, Dr. Cheryl Osso ...she wouldn't see the birds until Guelph had done testing, because without that she'd just be guessing/wasting money like Robin is. So the peacock died suddenly last week and was sent on its way. Vets best guess is mycoplasma since treatments seem to not be having much if any effect, but we'll see.Turkeys are still horrendously swollen but in good spirits, not droopy or ratty, appetite still normal, etc. The infection is not in/has not spread to eyeballs or damaged conjunctival tissue, and no plaques, redness or swelling in throat, so I guess there's that. I'm glad the peacock died, because Robin was not willing to cull any of them for testing. Now we wait, not sure how long.
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Mystery Respiratory Illness

Post by WLLady » Wed Nov 23, 2016 7:44 pm

Hopefully they wont be too long with the testing!!!
And fingers crossed it is something treatable!!!
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windwalkingwolf
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Mystery Respiratory Illness

Post by windwalkingwolf » Thu Dec 01, 2016 3:20 pm

She's down to one turkey, and has an appointment tomorrow with vet to discuss test results.
The one poult left is the one with the worst facial swelling, which is now down enough for him to be able to see...but I think it's down due to disease running it's course and not treatment because she should have seen more improvement by now if meds were working. Hopefully she gets some answers tomorrow.
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Mystery Respiratory Illness

Post by modern17 » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:03 pm

From my experience this person is dealing with Mycroplasma Synoviae or in simpler terms ... Infectious Synovitis ... Once again ... from experience .. culling is about the only solution ... sorry to be the bearer of bad news... a thorough disinfecting and waiting period may also be in order.
TL
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windwalkingwolf
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Mystery Respiratory Illness

Post by windwalkingwolf » Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:01 pm

We have a winner. Several winners. Actually, nobody wins except maybe the veterinarian. The bird was full of roundworms, which probably opened the immunity door to the rest of it. Positive for Myco S., positive for coliforms lesions/plaques not just normal gut flora, positive for aspergillus. Cheese in bronchi and fungal growths everywhere. I don't know how the one poor turkey is still alive, omg, or why the older group aren't dropping like flies. SO, against my own preference, she is taking two of the older, seemingly healthy birds to the vet for cervical dislocation and sending for testing and will decide from there. In the meantime she's deworming the entire flock and treating the one poult with $$$ cocktail of drugs. Which will likely fail because aspergillus doesn't usually respond to treatment, and I would think that knocking down the bacteria would give the mould a bigger edge. Clearly there are some management issue... even if the fungus came froma bad batch of feed or bedding, how in the heck do birds that young, never seen the ground, get wormy? Overcrowded maybe? Yuck. I really think she should depopulate, burn her coops and lime the soil! But I guess I'm not the one attached to those particular birds nor the one who spent insane amounts of money to buy and now treat them. She's informed that they will be carriers and it could pop up again at anytime even in new chicks and that neither birds nor eggs should ever leave her property. Gah, I've got the willies just thinking about it.
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Killerbunny
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Mystery Respiratory Illness

Post by Killerbunny » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:08 pm

I'm with you Jan. When I used to do avian path it was so difficult to explain to the owners that yes X,Y or z killed the birds but the problem was management. The oldtime Gamekeepers didn't want to hear that!
She needs to rethink her whole system - in fact this reminds me of the issue with a lady on PSO who kept getting cocci but we couldn't make her understand. Those poor, poor birds. Let's just hope nothing ever leaves there!
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Mystery Respiratory Illness

Post by WLLady » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:24 pm

Wow. Glad that its "labelled" now but yeah asp is almost impossible to treat!! I have found a compound called fungizone will kill it but doubtful it can be gotten in canada (we used to be able to get it in the usa eons ago). But the treatment has a tendancy to be as bad as the infection so the birds dont recover well. Sigh.
Yep....thats a start over scenario-at least for me. I would wonder if she has other animals that might be carrying the roundworms...we all get the with free rangers or if mice get in but usually not huge infestations and not in birds that havent been out....
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Mystery Respiratory Illness

Post by windwalkingwolf » Sun Dec 04, 2016 3:14 am

Killerbunny wrote:QR_BBPOST I'm with you Jan. When I used to do avian path it was so difficult to explain to the owners that yes X,Y or z killed the birds but the problem was management. The oldtime Gamekeepers didn't want to hear that!
She needs to rethink her whole system - in fact this reminds me of the issue with a lady on PSO who kept getting cocci but we couldn't make her understand. Those poor, poor birds. Let's just hope nothing ever leaves there!
Robin's quite beside herself, she had the best of intentions and the "poultry bug" that we've all caught, but I think her enthusiasm got ahead of her. Quite like that lady on PSO, I remember her...various poultry of various ages from various places kept together in a damp cellar was her problem if I recall correctly: she'd have problems with a batch and then buy more but got upset with us when we told her to stop doing that until birds stopped getting sick and dying...Kind of the same thing here I think, except this woman just got ahead of herself with hatching loads of eggs before she was sure her adult and juvenile stock were healthy and had enough room, etc.. Partly my own fault too, I think, because I basically taught her how to get good hatches out of her still air incubator, I've been kind of mentoring her since last year, but was a distant presence as opposed to someone who visited and pointed out problems. I'm not great at social stuff, and I was happy to provide text advice and stay away. Maybe if I'd had a personal look at her setup or been more forceful saying cayenne pepper won't keep pathogens away, she might have avoided this. I doubt it, but maybe. I mean, I prefer all-natural in my birds myself whenever possible, but I have first-hand experience that if it's absolutely safe to ingest in almost any quantity, it will NOT keep creepy crawlies away. Creepy crawlies need POISON that kills them, and often the safer alternative IS the chemical one. E.G. Walnut extract will kill roundworms...but it's much more likely to cause illness and death in your birds than say Piperizine. If you dose wrong with walnut, your chicken will die a not very nice death. But at least it will be worm-free. just an example. I've used cayenne for years to try and prevent Blackhead. Doesn't work. Used in quantity, it might save one bird in ten, which is a dismal amount. And after Robin's experience with all those bugs in her birds, I think it's safe to say hot pepper won't treat Myco s. or roundworms or e. coli, either. At least not in the one bird that was sent for testing, which is admittedly too small a sample :)
I also have to wonder about her use of garlic...I know it's anti microbial, but used regularly can cause a nasty sort of anemia that will lower immunity, and I know she used it twice weekly in their water and daily after she started seeing illness. No mention was made in the necropsy report, it was all about bugs and worms (negative for salmonella, things like that) I would like to see some real, credible research on the use of things like garlic, oregano, thyme, turmeric, etc. etc.
I feel horribly for her and her birds, but this stuff fascinates me and I'd like to see more research being done. If I had a poultry science program near me, I'd be all over that like stink on poop.
WLLady wrote:QR_BBPOST Wow. Glad that its "labelled" now but yeah asp is almost impossible to treat!! I have found a compound called fungizone will kill it but doubtful it can be gotten in canada (we used to be able to get it in the usa eons ago). But the treatment has a tendancy to be as bad as the infection so the birds dont recover well. Sigh.
Yep....thats a start over scenario-at least for me. I would wonder if she has other animals that might be carrying the roundworms...we all get the with free rangers or if mice get in but usually not huge infestations and not in birds that havent been out....
I am not going to look up fungizone, nor recommend she do it either. Just in case she CAN source it, because I know she'd try it and I think the one poor little turkey has been through enough. Been through enough months ago now, and almost three weeks I think since it started major med treatment including superbooster which is my go-to for sudden illness. I have to draw the line with my help somewhere, and really as soon as she said Myco AND mould, my line was drawn. I have a three day rule here. No noticeable improvement in three days in isolation with a treatment, and he or she meets the axe, and it's been a hard lesson to learn, but since I've dealt with chronic poultry diseases of my own it's been a necessary one. As it is, I fear if the remaining poult lives and recovers, I fear it's lifespan will be abnormally shortened because of the stress on it's system from illness AND from treatment. Some organ is going to fail when it's 3 or 4 years old, and she's going to go through all this again with a bird that she's then twice as attached to. And if the adults prove to be the source of the Myco at least, she's going to have loads of heartache in any case :( whether it be hatchability, morbidity or mortality.
As for me, I'm glad I haven't visited nor gave in when she begged me to necropsy the last two turkeys that died. I mean, I wish I had, because I was very curious what I would see/find, but if I had given something to my own birds I never would have forgiven myself. I actually recommended to her, as diplomatically as I could, that she burn her coops to the ground. With gasoline.
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Killerbunny
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Mystery Respiratory Illness

Post by Killerbunny » Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:06 am

M.s. is so scary to me that when I had that Jake blow up in the sinus area I culled him right away to necropsy him. It turned out to be a nasty abscess on an injury but I don't regret for a minute doing it. Just relieved it wasn't something nasty!
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:iheartpto:
Beltsville Small White turkeys.
Mutt chickens for eggs
RIP Stephen the BSW Tom and my coffee companion.
RIP Lucky the Very Brave Splash Wyandotte rooster.
RIP little Muppet the rescue cat.
:turkey:

:bat:

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Mystery Respiratory Illness

Post by Ontario Chick » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:59 am

windwalkingwolf wrote:QR_BBPOST actually recommended to her, as diplomatically as I could, that she burn her coops to the ground. With gasoline.
That would certainly be my recommendation, the whole thing just gives me heeby jeebies.
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