Question Copper deficiency?

[Robbie]

Hmmmm I'm looking forward to receiving my vitamin/mineral supplement.
I truly believe that the commercial layver /grower etc. feeds are not formulated to be adequate for breeding stock, I wonder what they feed the parent stock of the commercial breeds?
I noticed that the chickens ate a lot more of their feed since I cut back on scratch, so it will be interesting to see if there's any improvement in the egg shell quality.

[windwalkingwolf]

Salts--while it's true that birds can't handle a lot of sodium (neither can we lol), mineral or salt blocks are not just table salt, they are magnesium salts, potassium salts, calcium salts, manganese, copper, etc. etc.. If the only mineral salt they are getting is calcium from oyster shell, or they just get too much, an imbalance develops, and there's not enough of the other salts in commercial feed to balance it out. People see poor eggshell quality happening, and give their birds even more calcium. Truthfully, unless you've got production birds pounding out eggs every day, regular lay mash or pellets has quite enough calcium, and oyster shell is really unnecessary.
I'm with WLLady, my first thought is ILT...or another herpes virus...oviduct scarring causes wrinkly shells, gland scarring causes sandpapery feeling, thin shells. But if it's only one or two birds doing it, and it started suddenly without illness (or has always been there), you're right to look to diet. Sodium and Magnesium would be my first go-tos, since they're hard to find for free-ranging birds in poor inland soil. And, some birds just need more of one thing or another. Balanced feed is awesome if you have hundreds of birds and don't care about individuals, but truthfully, every bird is different in its dietary requirements, just like people. Standard bred or rare breed birds tend to be even more so, simply because a mild inability to absorb one nutrient or another is easily missed (often asymptomatic) when choosing breeding stock, but it tend to get compounded on down the line as birds are inbred. Then all of a sudden you've got a bunch of stargazers or issues with perosis, or eyelid scarring, or violent behaviour, or whatever.
Electrolyte imbalances can cause sudden death as well, and is often the only 'symptom', especially in roosters. All the mineral salts are important, and important to keep them balanced.
Hens that consistently lay wrinkled OR sandpaper eggs are almost guaranteed to become internal layers eventually, so it's best to get it sorted asap.
Just for the record, wrinkly shells and sandpapery thin ones, often surprisingly hatch just fine, but I would not mate the hens that lay those eggs with a rooster from the same line.

[Robbie]

I do have a few mineral blocks, I'll try chopping them up to see if the chickens have any interest in them. I suppose they will avoid it if they don't need the minerals.
I hatched out all my chickens from eggs, so I'm thinking it's not ILT but there are plenty of wild birds around so maybe. The flock seems healthy though. Thanks for the heads up WWW I'll watch for internal laying. I think Cornish are not long lived birds, and are prone to egg troubles.

[WLLady]

cornish are PITAs.....just my experience ;-P
i finally have a pair that are giving me about 60% hatch rates, and the chicks are able to hatch themselves, and don't die after 2 days in the brooder....finally.....

[WLLady]

oh, robbie, are the cornish the ones being the problem??
I have kept all my cornish on grower pellets with free choice calcium (oyster shell) and grit and if i notice the girls looking "off" (don't know how to describe it really, just slower than normal) i give them a handful of turkey feed....

[Robbie]

QR_BBPOST cornish are PITAs.....just my experience ;-P
i finally have a pair that are giving me about 60% hatch rates, and the chicks are able to hatch themselves, and don't die after 2 days in the brooder....finally.....

I'm going to want some of those hatching eggs...... mwahh haa haa haaaa!

QR_BBPOST oh, robbie, are the cornish the ones being the problem??
I have kept all my cornish on grower pellets with free choice calcium (oyster shell) and grit and if i notice the girls looking "off" (don't know how to describe it really, just slower than normal) i give them a handful of turkey feed....

Yes it's the Cornish, the wrinkled egg ones, but I noticed that the red sex link crosses, which gave me beautiful eggs earlier, were starting to get sandpapery. So I think it's a flock thing.

[Robbie]

I've been doing a bit more reading, and one of the causes of sandpaper eggs listed was a sudden change in the lighting regime. I'm thinking that this started when I put the chicks in the barn. They have heat lamps on 24 hours a day- does the red light from the lamps count as a change in the lighting regime? The hens can see the lights.

[ross]

For breeder chickens its recommended to feed Broiler feed if looking for a complete diet which I did for years when I incubated & raised my own . All breeders were "prisoner" birds & got along fine . Luck

[Robbie]

Update- the chickens did not show any interest at the mineral block shavings. But, after two days of greatly reduced scratch, and lots of sesame seeds, the eggs have gone back to their glossy old selves.
The cornish laying the wrinkled egg has decided to go broody instead. (Again!!!! and again!!!!) So no eggs from her for the past couple of days.
Goes to show that scratch is cr*p. They do love it though, and I got too generous with it. They will have to make do with boring old layer feed.

[ross]

Scratch is fine if used for what its made for . As the name says to teach chickens to scratch & go look for food on their own (treat) . Personally I feel the feed mfg puts together a good well rounded mix of feed & vitamins & if let to free roam can pick out things they like . There are f lots of folks who have knowledge to mix own but very few .Personally I like to watch & enjoy my birds rather than mess around with feed mixes that the professionals have already done the work .I also find when the birds eat pellets crumbs or mash the get everything in one pellet & don't pick out grains they like . Like kids critters will eat what tastes best to them but not necessarly what is best for them . With mfg feeds I find all vitamins & minerals are in them & no picking out what they like . This from years of personal experiences in all kinds of different critter feed , no feed caused issues . PS also found cheaper in long run cause birds eat all no waste .Just a few of my reasons not trying to change anybody just give my opinions .